Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital Cameras (Point and Shoot) > Panasonic / Leica

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Oct 4, 2004, 11:03 PM   #41
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 22
Default

bobc wrote:
Quote:
CheapPhoto wrote:
Quote:
Hi bobc.

Any dummy would know that more pixels is better. But it is not true when you having a same sensor size, it would be a diiferent story.Who wouldn't know 20MP is better than 5MP, or 12MP, but when you using a 1/2.5 sensor to hold on to a 5MP(FZ20 or for your better understanding lets say a 14MP), then how would you think about the noise level of that 1/2.5 sensor image produce. Forum member here to share info, and I don't think you should trash others who intended to share info to make this forum useful.

Just my $0.02



CheapPhoto
Any dummy would know that I was merely explaining about the resolution of an image, and nothing to do with sensors.

Speaking of which... I have a question...

Is the difference in Meagapixels determided by the number of cells on the sensor?

I have randomly looked at some specs on different camera's both sensor size and number of cells.

If they can fit more cells on a smaller sensor. Is that a bad thing?

Or is it better to spread the cells out onto a bigger sensor?

I am trying to think of this in terms of electronics and optics, and to understand how they work together.

bobc



Yes,I knew you were talking about pixel resolution, but we are talking about the noise of the FZ20 vs FZ15, and FZ3.You gave out the info saying that more pixels is better, then you have to ask yourself who wouldn't know more pixels is better. Never mind.

The fz20 and fz15 have the same sensor size and I think it is very interesting to see how they stack up with each other. If someone just read your input of more pixels always better than less pixels sensor. You might just mislead them. Because FZ15 might be a better choice with less noise.

If the sensor size remain the same, when you try to put more pixels into the same sensor, then the pixel size would be smaller. Like you said in electronic sence, that a smaller pixel would be more sensitive to noise. The reflect the light from the len then the individual pixel would transfer the info to the engine, but most digi cam has noise reduction before it get to the file. I am sure you would know that a bigger pixel size would produce less noise. Once a amount of pixel fit in a certain size of a sensor at a mutual ceiling point.( resolution vs noise) then, once you go over the limite, the noise level might not be acceptable.

As for example for Audio noise reduction as Dobly type B for our tape player, when you take away the noise, then you also take away some details too.

just my worthless 0.02

CheapPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 4, 2004, 11:43 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
bobc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Default

The only reason I was prooving the resolution thing, was because NickTrop said:

According to this photographer, you do not notice resolution improvements in digital cameras until there is a quadrupling in the number of megapixels.

I was not even talking about noise.

And... Your 2 cents is not worthless...

I was under the impression that the cells on the sensor where analog, like a photo diode or something that converted light into a signals which then, each signal was converted into digital pixels through some type of A/D conversion process.

I guess I was wrong, and should do some research on exactly how these sensors work from an opto-electronic stand point.

Thanks for you help, and please put your 2 cents in anytime. I am just trying to learn the things I don't know, and pass on information about the things I do know.

And thats my 1 1/2 cents worth.

bobc
bobc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 4, 2004, 11:52 PM   #43
Senior Member
 
bobc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Default

I don't know if this will help anyone, but here are 4 crops of the the same part of 4 images at %100 resolution. They where all taken with the FZ20. In order from top left, top right, bottom left, and bottom right:

2560 x 1920 (5MP)

2048 x 1536 (4MP)

1600 x 1200 (3MP)

1280 x 690 (2MP)

I am far from an expert, and would like some opinions on the quality of these samples. Not from a resolution standpoint, but the picture quality of each MP size.

Thanks in advance.

bobc
Attached Images
 
bobc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 12:10 AM   #44
Senior Member
 
bobc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Default

I'm sorry...

The settings for all where:

Mode: Manual

Aperture: f2.8

Shutter: 2 seconds

ISO: 100

Focal Length: 6.0 mm

Flash: off

Tri-Pod: yes

Conditions: Dimly lit room with just a small desk lamp on.

bobc



bobc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 1:24 AM   #45
Senior Member
 
fireworkz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 164
Default

WOw I have to say the 2MP is the best image of the lot...
fireworkz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 6:27 AM   #46
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3
Default

2560 x 1920 (5MP)

2048 x 1536 (4MP)

1600 x 1200 (3MP)

1280 x 690 (2MP)

I am far from an expert, and would like some opinions on the quality of these samples. Not from a resolution standpoint, but the picture quality of each MP size.

Thanks in advance.

bobc

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The FZ20 doesn't record at 4mp, so all of your numbers are off by a factor of 1 starting down from 4mp, which should read 3mp, etc. You made a similar error in an earlier post when you cited 1280 X 960 as 2mp resolution, when in fact it is 1mp, and becomesless than 1/4 the size of 2560 X 1920. "Double the sides, square the area." BTW, 2304 X 1728 is 4mp resolution.

mud

mudshu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 9:38 AM   #47
Fox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 254
Default

OK , Now you all have me a bit confused. (Which is not hard to do) Are you all saying that if the FZ20 is put into 2048 x 1536 picture size, that it is only using 3mp of the sensor? Or does it down sample the picture to that resolution? If the former is true, Does this mean that less noise will be on pictures taken at this resolution from the FZ20? I wouldn't think so, but what do I know. I really don't know much at all on this subject. I wish someone could explain to me (using small words as much as possible) what advantage does the 5mp give over the 4mp? Other than printing a larger picture or being able to crop a tighter spot of a picture in post.
Is there more information (detail) in the 5mp camera with just a little more noise than in the 4mp with less noise? If this is true, would a person using a 5mp camera (FZ20) and cleaning up noise in post have a better picture than the person using the 4mp (FZ15) doing the same thing? Enough of my questions. Thank you all for taking the time to share your knowledge with this forum.
Fox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 6:23 PM   #48
Senior Member
 
bobc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,433
Default

mudshu wrote:
Quote:
The FZ20 doesn't record at 4mp, so all of your numbers are off by a factor of 1 starting down from 4mp, which should read 3mp, etc. You made a similar error in an earlier post when you cited 1280 X 960 as 2mp resolution, when in fact it is 1mp, and becomesless than 1/4 the size of 2560 X 1920. "Double the sides, square the area." BTW, 2304 X 1728 is 4mp resolution.

mud

Sorry about that... But...

Does anyone see that drastic of a difference in image quality?

bobc
bobc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 7:27 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 193
Default

Hmmm...

The higher the megapixel doesn't neccessarily mean better photo. It would depend on the resolution / size of the image you are trying to produce.

On a 4MP camera vs a 5PM camera if printing on a 3x5 picture, the picture is basically the same.

The noise on the FZ10 @ ISO 400 is pretty high. Not sure about FZ20 thought
smilepak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2004, 7:47 PM   #50
Senior Member
 
HarjTT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,535
Default

Zoomn

The owl pic is great. Where was it taken ?

Harj

HarjTT is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43 PM.