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Old Sep 25, 2004, 11:07 PM   #1
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Ok, I'm a reasonable man. I've had numerous digicams and DSLRs. Had mid-level hopes for the FZ20. So far, it has exceeded my expectations. But this Manual mode LCD darkening with external flash just has me baffled. Makes no sense.

If the camera has External flash turned on, obviously the user wants to use a flash. If in Manual mode, the user wants maximum control over the shutter speed and aperture. So why cause the LCDs to darken at anything past f2.8 and 1/60th? What exactly is the reasoning behind this? My only "bright LCD" options are either A mode and 1/60th or S mode and f/2.8? Why?????

What is the purpose of having a sync speed of 1/250th (actually 1/1000th - tried it last night) if you can't see to frame the shot?

Don't mean to rant. But if I didn't know better I'd say Panasonic purposefully crippled the camera so as not to unduly compete with an upcoming Leica of the same design.

David






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Old Sep 25, 2004, 11:44 PM   #2
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I haven't used an external flash with my FZ10 yet, but I've been doing lots of night shots and yes, it is annoying. Program mode won't let me go further than 2.8 1/4. In Manual mode, even with higher exposition values, the screen goes darker and... no, that doesn't seem designed to make the photographer's life any easier. We still can hope they fix this LCD... behaviour in the next FZ models.
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Old Sep 27, 2004, 4:31 PM   #3
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I totally agree. I am using the Nikon SB28DX with this camera and the LCD is a pain in the ass to shot at night. I would have to bring to F2.8 and sometime shuttle 1/15 to see anything in the LCD, then up the shuttle to 125 to take the picture.

Why? Just plan stupid!
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Old Sep 28, 2004, 6:35 PM   #4
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When I was youger, and I am not that old now, I had a camera with replaceable lenses but optical viewfinder, not slr. That thing had another viewfinder that would mount in to flash mount and you can select different lenses on it. Maybe someone should come up with acessory for digicams that would kinda do the same. Would be useful for low light shooting. Pattent office here I come.

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Old Sep 29, 2004, 8:38 AM   #5
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This same topic was argued to death in this forum re the FZ10.

Unfortunately, Panasonic see it as a "feature", not a problem. And whilst it could be easily rectified in firmware (I believe) making it a user selectable option, or simply recognising that it is stupid to darken the image to what the meter believes it would look like using the ambient lightif a flash is going to be used (and it knows an external flash is connected after all)

However, I pretty much got shouted down here for ranting about it before as everyone else seemed to think shooting at a fixed 1/60th was fine and I must have some bizarre obscure reasons for wanting to use a different shutter speed....
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Old Sep 30, 2004, 4:50 PM   #6
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Sad they don't have an official forum on it so we could spam the forum about it.
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 5:26 PM   #7
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Hi!

(Sorry my bad english...)

The full manual mode in FZ10-20 seems towork like the DOF-Preview in DSLRs.

An another reason: the full manual mode has got the shortest delay between the press of the shutter button and take the picture. The F8 aperture needed more time to set than the F2.8. This time lag isn't allowed, so they think: OK, you can't see anything, but the camera works fast.

I used to framing in P mode, than I switch to A/S/M, and everything works fine...


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Old Oct 5, 2004, 1:39 PM   #8
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KTTech wrote:
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The full manual mode in FZ10-20 seems to work like the DOF-Preview in DSLRs.

An another reason: the full manual mode has got the shortest delay between the press of the shutter button and take the picture. The F8 aperture needed more time to set than the F2.8. This time lag isn't allowed, so they think: OK, you can't see anything, but the camera works fast.

I used to framing in P mode, than I switch to A/S/M, and everything works fine...

I haven't used a DSLR yet, but my Undigital Camera had this DOF-Preview button. You pushed it and you could see what the picture would look like... and if it was too dark (but the final picture wouldn't be, because you were using a flash, or the exposure time was long) you simply didn't use it so you could see what you were pointing at.

Now, with the FZ10 at least, in Manual mode you have this feature, as it is called, enabled all the time. It's not like the DOF-Preview or even like the Program mode in this same camera, where you half-press the shutter to have this effect or release it to be able to frame. So, as you say, you can switch to Program Mode, compose, switch again and then shoot... but there are some situations where this isn't practical at all. Besides, you would think there is no reason for this to happen in the first place: If you can see a light enough image in P mode, why does the camera "render" this dark view on the EVF all the time in M mode? Perhaps to... prevent you from using it?



Please, would you post more info on how the "shortest delay between the press of the shutter button" that you mention is related to this EVF darkening issue? Thanks.


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Old Oct 10, 2004, 1:42 PM   #9
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José A. wrote:
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Besides, you would think there is no reason for this to happen in the first place: If you can see a light enough image in P mode, why does the camera "render" this dark view on the EVF all the time in M mode? Perhaps to... prevent you from using it?



Please, would you post more info on how the "shortest delay between the press of the shutter button" that you mention is related to this EVF darkening issue? Thanks.


Hi!

(sorry, 'bout my english...)

The full manual mode, is like the WYSIWYG system in the Windows. The P/A/S mode the camera uses F2.8, ISO400, and shutter speed (electrical) 1/30 for EVF/LCD, in the worst case (of course, if it is bright sunligt, these settings will be different). This is enough almost every situation, so you can see something in the EVF even dim light, and it's enoughto the fluid movement of the picture on the EVF.

The full manual mode, you select ISO50 (80), Shutter speed 1/500 sec X sync, F5.6 iris. This cause full darkness, if you're not in bright sunlight. (in a dim light these settings - if you take the picture - means full black frame, and this is what you see in EVF/LCD). (You said - OK, I will use external flash, but the time what the camera needs to set these settings, is too high).

The shortest delay, you can try it: set the aperture F5.6, in A mode. Press the shutter, and wait, until the aperture is setting from F2.8->F5.6. This is a significant delay between you press the shutter and thetaking of thepicture. in full manual mode you set F5.6, and from this moment the aperture (in mechanical part) will be set to F5.6. No need more time to set the aperture, like in A/S or P mode. This means the shortest delay.
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Old Oct 10, 2004, 7:02 PM   #10
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I lucked out on this EVF/LCD issue. As much as I can see how it would bother some people, I have some experience in archery, and can generally getthe cameralined up pretty nearly exactly where I want it without having the screen even be on. I've even started to get a good feel for macro distances with a blank screen. But I admit, if some one came out with a way of gaining up the LCD in manual, I probably wouldn't complain either. Most of the time I enjoy trying to overcome shortcomings in cameras. I consider it a personal challenge. But I know there are times you just want to know that everything is set where you want it, and you just want to be able to line up and shoot.

One of the things I've noticed is that many (Not just Panasonic) manufacturers consider shooting outdoors to be the ideal, and "focus" of what a camera is used for. While many manufacturers are onto the fact that people want to be able to shoot in doors, they have still not gotten the clue that people want it to be done smoothely. Over the next two or three years I think you are are going to eventually see a shift from "if you CAN take any picture, it works..." attittude to "If you can take a GREAT looking picture, it works.." attitude. It just hasn't settled in on the consumer/prosumer market yet. These Leica lenses seem like a pretty good step in that direction. But I think the biggest stumbling block in that plan is going to be their popularity. Not so much because it'll go to their head. But because as long as they are successful, engineers and sales will think they must be doing everything right. Technically, I think they are...justnot right enough for the hardcore people, which in the long run, has a veryminimal impact on their businessmodel.

I find the idea of of a eye piece on the hotshoe intrigueing. I'llhave to look into that. It'd begreat toalso find one that can shift the image a little to take care of parallax or image shift. But Ican work around it if the viewfinder is off a little.



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