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Old Oct 28, 2004, 12:42 PM   #31
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Hey Nick

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Thanks for the quick reply. I found some adapters for the FZ1, but I will reduce the MP to half on my FZ10 and I'll see what happens. You know what I noticed also is that my files on my FZ1 were almost as big as on my FZ10, I wonder why? Anyways thanks for all the info on the noise reduction deal. I will keep playing with my FZ10 and see how it turns out. I was taking some pics of the eclipse with my FZ10 and a TCON 14attached, and without the manual focus it wouldhavebeen hard toget them.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 5:31 PM   #32
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Good stuff. I also use the fz1 and always wondered why my pictures looked better than most of the ones I am seeing from the newer models. This explains a lot.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 1:18 AM   #33
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Lowering the reolution setting will not reduce noise. The size and number of pixels is a physical characteristic of the sensor, so the signal-to-noise ratio of each pixel is a constant, regardless of the resolution (or ISO) you select.

When you select a lower resolution than the physical one, the firmware combines the readings of adjacent pixels to produce the resolution you selected... noise and all. It's no different than using a photo editor on your computer to change the resolution.

If your camera has onboard noise reduction, it should be able to make a true difference in quality, and may beusing a technique similar to what the camera does following a long exposure (over 1/2 second): it takes a second, "darkframe" image (shutter closed)of the same duration,to record the current noise level of each pixel, and then subtracts that from the exposed image. In that respect, the camera should be able to do a better job of noise reduction than any computer-based software, because it can measure the actual noise of each pixel at the time each image is recorded.

The advantages of using lower resolution are1) the file sizes are smaller and 2) the rescaling takes place before JPG compression. When you rescale a JPG on the computer, you're working with a slightly degraded image and then degrading it again when you save the result. The drawback to using lower resolutionis that you've told the camera to discard information immediately, and there's no way to get it back. Personally, I always use highest resolution, finest JPEG quality, and lowest ISO the lighting permits. (Disk space is cheap.)

The "native" ISO of each sensor is also fixed. Selecting a higher ISO is analagous to "forcing" the development of film, not to using a higher ASA-rated film. When you choose a higher ISO, the firmware boosts the signal (and the noise; they're Siamese twins) to deliver an apparently brighter image.

Unfortunately, the only ways to get lower noise are to use larger pixels (lower resolution or larger sensors), or to improve the technology of the chips themselves (better signal-to-noise ratios). The on-camera noise-reduction is a partial solution, but since some information has to be lost, it isn't ideal.

I wonder whether the Foveon sensor, with its three layers, delivers lower noise than conventional sensors.


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Old Oct 30, 2004, 11:48 AM   #34
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Charlie,

Great info, great post. Thanks!

Nick
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 12:35 PM   #35
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Charlie,

You seem to have done your homework. Great Info.

I have seen some samples in reviews of other cameras (some way more expensive than the Lumix's) that have much larger sesors, and yet more noise.

Would that be because of the proccessing after the A/D conversion, or just a poorly designed sensor?


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Old Oct 30, 2004, 4:36 PM   #36
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Take a look at some of these shots with an FZ20 and seewhat you think about it's potential.
http://www.pbase.com/pnd1/yosemite
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Old Oct 31, 2004, 6:47 PM   #37
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:idea:Nick - You seem to heartily recommend the FZ1, but I just took a look at Panasonics website, and they don't list it as a supported digital camera.I found the firmware upgrade and copied it and the instructions before they vaporized. Ritz auctions have a couple of them on ebay right now (31Oct04) for ~$160. ! Sounds like it might be a good deal. tswill2
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Old Oct 31, 2004, 8:40 PM   #38
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tswill2 wrote:
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:idea:Nick - You seem to heartily recommend the FZ1, but I just took a look at Panasonics website, and they don't list it as a supported digital camera.**I found the firmware upgrade and copied it and the instructions before they vaporized.* Ritz auctions have a couple of them on ebay right now (31Oct04) for ~$160. !* Sounds like it might be a good deal.* tswill2
Yes, great deal. I'm sure they're discontinued at this point and stores are blowing them out to make room for the new lumi's. Here's another link by fmoore:
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...57&forum_id=23
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Old Nov 1, 2004, 11:09 AM   #39
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Take a look at this for good info on understanding sensor size etc.

http://www.photo.net/equipment/digital/basics/

Thanks for the good info Nick. By the way, I recently started using Jasc.com's Paint Shop Pro Version 9 because of their powerful Photo tools for digital noise, chromatic aberation and fill flash. Also the very good red-eye removal and Instant Fix options.

Lastly, they have a real treasure tool in the "Scratch Removal" tool. It gives you a crosshair that you drag across a scratch (think rubber band look). When released the scratch is automatically removed and the photo blends perfectly. I used it on some people photos to remove smile wrinkles and crowsfeet from faces and it is amazing. Free trial is 60 days, buy is $109 but your camera software will get you a $30 rebate.

I've been an Adobe Photoshop user for years and have tried many flavors of other photo software. I can honestly say, this Paint Shop Pro Version 9 is perfect for the Panasonic crowd.
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Old Nov 1, 2004, 11:58 AM   #40
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nooner wrote:
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Take a look at some of these shots with an FZ20 and seewhat you think about it's potential.
http://www.pbase.com/pnd1/yosemite
Absolutely wonderful. Thanks.

- sp
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