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Old Jan 6, 2005, 5:49 PM   #1
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http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dq.shtml
Good analysis of the effect CCD size has on quality noise and resolution.....
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 5:57 PM   #2
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boyzo wrote:
Quote:
http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dq.shtml
Good analysis of the effect CCD size has on quality noise and resolution.....
here also

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF7.html
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 6:04 PM   #3
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boyzo wrote:
Quote:
boyzo wrote:
Quote:
http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dq.shtml
Good analysis of the effect CCD size has on quality noise and resolution.....
here also

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF7.html
* Small sensors run into problems with lens diffraction, which limits image resolution at small apertures-- starting around f/16 for the 35mm format. At large apertures-- f/4 and above-- resolution is limited by aberrations. There is a resolution "sweet spot" between the two limits, typically between f/5.6 and f/11 for good 35mm lenses. The aperture at which a lens becomes diffraction-limited is proportional to the format size: 22 mm diagonal sensors become diffraction-limited at f/8 and 11 mm diagonal sensors become diffraction-limited at f/4-- the same aperture where it becomes aberration-limited. There is little "sweet spot;" the total image resolution at optimum aperture is less than for larger formats. Of course cameras with small sensors can be made very compact, which is attractive to consumers.

* Large sensors cost more. No getting around it. That's the major reason compact digital cameras are so popular. 11 mm diagonal sensors have 1/16 the area of a 35mm frame. The problem with large sensors is manufacturing yield-- the percentage of sensors that work properly. Suppose an 11 mm sensor has a 90% yield (pretty good). A 44 mm sensor (35mm format; 16x the area) with the same process would have a yield of 0.9016 = 18% (not so hot). Larger sensors tend to have larger pixels, which helps the yield.

Compact digital cameras have sensors with diagonal dimensions between 5 and 11 mm, and pixel pitches 3.4 µm or less. These cameras have acceptably low noise at low ISO speeds and the best of them-- the "prosumer" models-- can make excellent 8½x11 inch prints.

It appears Lumix CCD is 22mm diagonal as f8 is the smallest f stop
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 6:43 PM   #4
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boyzo wrote:
Quote:
boyzo wrote:
Quote:
boyzo wrote:
Quote:
http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dq.shtml
Good analysis of the effect CCD size has on quality noise and resolution.....
here also

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF7.html
* Small sensors run into problems with lens diffraction, which limits image resolution at small apertures-- starting around f/16 for the 35mm format. At large apertures-- f/4 and above-- resolution is limited by aberrations. There is a resolution "sweet spot" between the two limits, typically between f/5.6 and f/11 for good 35mm lenses. The aperture at which a lens becomes diffraction-limited is proportional to the format size: 22 mm diagonal sensors become diffraction-limited at f/8 and 11 mm diagonal sensors become diffraction-limited at f/4-- the same aperture where it becomes aberration-limited. There is little "sweet spot;" the total image resolution at optimum aperture is less than for larger formats. Of course cameras with small sensors can be made very compact, which is attractive to consumers.

* Large sensors cost more. No getting around it. That's the major reason compact digital cameras are so popular. 11 mm diagonal sensors have 1/16 the area of a 35mm frame. The problem with large sensors is manufacturing yield-- the percentage of sensors that work properly. Suppose an 11 mm sensor has a 90% yield (pretty good). A 44 mm sensor (35mm format; 16x the area) with the same process would have a yield of 0.9016 = 18% (not so hot). Larger sensors tend to have larger pixels, which helps the yield.

Compact digital cameras have sensors with diagonal dimensions between 5 and 11 mm, and pixel pitches 3.4 µm or less. These cameras have acceptably low noise at low ISO speeds and the best of them-- the "prosumer" models-- can make excellent 8½x11 inch prints.

It appears Lumix CCD is 22mm diagonal as f8 is the smallest f stop
seems I spoke too soon image sensor for FZ10 is....

Resolution 4.00 Mpixel
Maximum resolution 2304x1728
Minimum resolution 640x480
Sensor size 1/2.5-inch

1/2" 12.7mm



FZ1

Resolution 2.11 Mpixel
Maximum resolution 1600x1200
Minimum resolution 640x480
Sensor size 1/3.2-inch
Sensor type CCD

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Old Jan 6, 2005, 8:27 PM   #5
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i'm curious about the way they call out sensor sizes... for example, 1/2.5"... is that 1/2", or does 1/2.5 expressa fraction, which would be .4"?
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 9:14 PM   #6
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squirl033 wrote:
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i'm curious about the way they call out sensor sizes... for example, 1/2.5"... is that 1/2", or does 1/2.5 express a fraction, which would be .4"?
could be .4" yes or 0.5 inch its confusing yes

link to FZ1
1/3.2-inc = 0.313" 8mm this is a small sensor

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/came.../252/show.html
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 10:39 PM   #7
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i found the following searching for some clarification to this question:

"There seems to be much confusion amongst the public at large about the image sensors used in digital cameras. The figures the makers quote are basically meaningless unless you are "in the know" about what they mean when they say "it has a 1/1.8 inch sensor". The example of 1/1.8 inch type of measurement relates to a standard used starting in the 1950s about Vidicon tubes used in TV cameras. That example of 1/1.8" works out to 0.5555 inches (1 divided by 1.8 is what it means) and that is the diameter of the original glass Vidicon tube that had an image size similar to the image size in the digital camera they are talking about."

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog.../sensors1.html

so apparently, the sensor size in the FZ20's IS "1 divided by 2.5", or .4"...
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Old Jan 6, 2005, 10:53 PM   #8
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Yeah, the FZ's have a small sensor. However, the upside is that it allows a compact camera with incredible zoom specs.... still the best on the market (12X) after two years (an eternity in technology years...) now The others still can't match 12X. Furthermore, their IS a real difference between 10X and 12X zoom... Don't think of it s a +/- 2 differential. Think of it as a ~ 20% difference in zoom capability, which is what it really is. (You can keep the 10X zooms...including the new Nikon for this reason.) Can't have it both ways. I think the engineers at Pana did a fantastic job getting the most out of the constraints of the small sensor size that's required to keep the focal length of the camera as compact as it is. Done, as you pointed out in other posts by some Venus engine trickery...

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Old Jan 6, 2005, 11:07 PM   #9
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i agree, Nick... everything is a compromise in this world, especially when you're on the "bleeding edge" of technology. in this case, the compromise is between sensor size and lens size. that f2.8, 12x zoom would be impossibly large if the FZ had an SLR-sizesensor, and we'd probably all be sitting here discussing how to mount 3x teleconverters to our f4.5, 4x optics, instead of marveling at the photos these cameras take right out of the box. yes, smaller sensors are noisier for the same pixel count, but frankly, i'll put up with a bit of noise from a small sensor in exchange for that wonderful lens any day! the noise i can minimize with low ISO settings andproper exposure andlighting, but there ain't no substitute for that 12x zoom! so far, noise from the sensor, even in night shots like the ones i posted here of the SpaceNeedle,is no worse than the film grain i used to get with ASA200 film in my Pentax ME Super, and i never found that to be a problem. and i guarantee you,all the zoomlenses in my Pentax bag couldn't do what the one on the FZ20 can...


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Old Jan 6, 2005, 11:24 PM   #10
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squirl033 wrote:
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the noise i can minimize with low ISO settings and*proper exposure and*lighting, but there ain't no substitute for that 12x zoom! so far, noise from the sensor, even in night shots like the ones i posted here of the Space*Needle,*is no worse than the film grain i used to get with ASA200 film in my Pentax ME Super, and i never found that to be a problem. and i guarantee you,*all the zoom*lenses in my Pentax bag couldn't do what the one on the FZ20 can...
Agree 100%. This is my first digital, and I come from the 100% manual (shutter, focus, everything) film SLR world too. I really think you need to have some film SLR experience to appreciate this camera line. And - likewise, what's all the fuss about the noise? You can get rid of most of it in post and as you point out, grain never bothered me in film. As long as I have a measure of control - which I do, various shooting situations pose photographic problems to solve. Solving those problems is a big part of the fun. I'm not sure I would really want the "perfect" camera if you know what I mean.
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