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Old Jan 8, 2005, 5:59 PM   #31
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bobc wrote:
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Nick... I might just start drinking just to have a few with ya m8...
...could never do that t'ya, M8T, if being dry is the same as quitting smoking (like I'm trying...). I still like a semi-annual bender (good for the soul) :?, and I'm afraid I could never shake the tendency to knock'em down, tie on a load and get pie-eyed (The road to excess leads to the valley of wisdom. Jim Morrison. And his "valley of wisdom" is a grave in France...) Starbucks, sometimes perhaps for a spot o' gree tea? ... anyone in the Philly area, I would be up for that.

Rather than go back and forth on a POV that I'll never be sold on, - with you and fmmore, I'll just say we agree to disagree. Kudos on a great thread topic, though!
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:01 PM   #32
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First of all, it is what the camera can do is why most people buy one. Some will have to consider the price as well and do want the most for what they are going to pay.

What we can do with the camera becomes another challenge. It shows here time and againon this forum and the questions asked and information shared.

The use of post-processing after the pictureis taken is another challenge. Basacbrought up a goodpointabout the in-camera processing that is available as well. If we truly want to see the results of our efforts then we should put everything at the lowest (standard) settings.

With the excitement of a new camera as the FZ's oft times therehave been huge expectations of the camera.Some of us (okay it wasjust me)find that we actually had no expectations from ourselves in learning and understanding what we really have in our hands. It takes time to get to know anything new. Even experienced people will attest to that. In this way we start to find our "niche" and then gravitate to that aspect.

Thus, post processing is part of that. From subtle to outrageous. We are different in our likes and dislikes and this is no different. I happen to like all aspects and not one over the other.

I will say that learning to get the best shot out of what the camera has to offer is what should be the main goal of anyone who wants to excel in this hobby. The FZ is a lot of camera and has been a lot of fun for me to learn beyond the point and shoot instamatic I grew up on.

Oh by the way, I love all you guys and gals.:-D

This is a very good thread.

Mahalo,

Tom
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:04 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:
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Nick, great post. I can see why you are a teacher.
Thank you, sir. My second career - and I'm somewhat of a newbie. I was a "solver of business problems" until the overall business climate became too unethical, volitile, and return of the X-theory (which will ultimately prove to be disasterous...) style of management occured over the last 5 years or so. Until such time or place that this changes, I will teach - and like Socrates, "polute the minds of our youth." :G
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:29 PM   #34
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First of all thanks Bob for starting a great topic, things were beginning to get a little dull!
I initially was against any sort of post processing. Now looking back I realise that the reason was that I didnt know how to do it. I admit now that I do some minor post processing but this is usually just experimenting with the latest technique that I have learnt to see what it can do. As many people have pointed out the FZ cameras do PP in the camera and nobody seems to complain. Also the JPEG algorithm is PP as it manipulates the image. I realise that at some point a line needs to be drawn but where that line should be placed is up to the individual.
From what I have seen, done and read PP will not make a bad photographer a good one but it will allow them to adjust a photo to get the most out of it. I have started to use sharpen and unsharp mask to help remove the effects of JPEG compression. I also will remove noise as I see it as a digital artefact and not part of the photo.
I believe that is people do some PP that they should indicate it but what others should realise is that PP is not some digital trickery that turns a bad photo into a great one, for a PP image to be great the original needs to be great as well.
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:42 PM   #35
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Bob great post....Pic's out of the camera.....most of my photos that are not "art "relatedare for the most part out of the camera.I can say that I have had to help out a few shots with mild brightness,saturation,sharping,noise removal but this is very common even with the pro's..I haveowned 5 brands of digital cameras all middle of the road in price and every 1 of them would produce good photos for the most part...the FZ's seem to be better with being consistent with most shooting environments leaving less to have to be adjusted.....and i do like that!!!

willow

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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:53 PM   #36
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for the most part, if i edit my pictures at all, its just a little minor tweaking with the brightness and contrast, nothing to major. other than that, i usually just post pics straight from the camera(after they have been resized of course)
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 6:59 PM   #37
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I am rather new here as well and just got an FZ20 this Christmas. Ideally I would like to see the raw captured image by the CCD. However this isn't really possible since the camera does some post processing with the Pict. Adj. settings. In that case I don't think it is really fair to use the raw out of the camera settings.

For example if someone is skilled at using a noise removal/USMtool and thinks they can do a much better/smarter job of post processing than the FZ20 can they will most likely use "low" settings for noise removal/sharpness etc. These straight out of the camera settings should be noiser/less sharp than someone that uses the standard settings. Obviously it doesn't make sense for that photographer to take photos with standard settings for this forum as they wont be getting the best images that they can. And it probably could reflect poorly on someone considering the FZ20 because the camera could have removed more noise but it was delibrately prevented from doing so.

As someone new to this camera AND post processing techniques I would love to see both the before and after post processing so I know how to improve both my on camera shots and my post processing techniques. If you can only post one I would probably want to see just the final image with a brief description of what was done to it.



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Old Jan 8, 2005, 7:07 PM   #38
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Wilow1,

Your shots on this forum are superb, and one of my goals is to get "straight out of the camera" shots like the ones you post.

This is part of what I am talking about here. Learning not only to get good at using the camera, but get good at composing the shots & using the camera.

I agree that digital photography &image editing go hand in hand as we develop our skills, but there should be a balance that leans more toward the camera end.

A good point to make here is... Why spend money on something that givesall the bells and wistles that the FZ's provide, put it in P mode, point and shoot a bunch of pics, and edit them all till they turn out like we want them to.

We could do that with a disposible camera (minus the zoom), and have them put on a CD to edit.
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 8:16 PM   #39
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bobc wrote:
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Wilow1,


A good point to make here is... Why spend money on something that gives*all the bells and wistles that the FZ's provide, put it in P mode, point and shoot a bunch of pics, and edit them all till they turn out like we want them to.

We could do that with a disposible camera (minus the zoom), and have them put on a CD to edit.
One of those bells and whistles. The most sophisticated of the bells and whistles IS the P mode. This allows many neophytes the opportunity to get a rewarding picture out of their camera without any prior knowledge of photography. After those successes they may then have the confidence to experiment with one of the settings. Then two of the settings. Every one does not have the same approach to photography that you, or I , or Nick, Willow etc, etc. may have. Is it important not to misrepresent the cameras abilities. Absolutely! Is it necessary that every one learn to use the full potential of the camera. Absolutely Not! They only need to become as experienced as they want to become. Via la différence! To each his own.

All the best,

smac
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Old Jan 8, 2005, 8:51 PM   #40
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smac wrote:
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One of those bells and whistles. The most sophisticated of the bells and whistles IS the P mode. This allows many neophytes the opportunity to get a rewarding picture out of their camera without any prior knowledge of photography. After those successes they may then have the confidence to experiment with one of the settings. Then two of the settings. Every one does not have the same approach to photography that you, or I , or Nick, Willow etc, etc. may have. Is it important not to misrepresent the cameras abilities. Absolutely! Is it necessary that every one learn to use the full potential of the camera. Absolutely Not! They only need to become as experienced as they want to become. Via la diffé²¥nce! To each his own.

All the best,

smac
smac,

I think you missunderstood my point. I agree with "to each their own". One can have an interest in photography or image enhancement or both.

If I wanted to get into image editing, I would get the full blown version of photo shop, because I know I could grow into it as I developed my skills.

If I wanted to get into photography, I would get a camera that I could grow into as I developed my skills.

And if I wanted to do both, I would get both.

But... If I was not that concerned about the photography because I knew that as long as I got a half decent shot and could turn it into a great shot in photo shop, why would I buy a camera that had features that I would never use.

I do have quite a few image editing packages, some that are quite expensive (including the full blown version of photo shop). And I love messing around with graphics. It's another goal of mine to get good at that too.

I have seen some of your out of the camera shots, and someday would like to achieve that level of photography skills, and I feel that getting into the enhancement thing now would only deter my efforts. And that is what I meant about balance.

And just to be clear... My last post was not directed at Willow1. I was just pointing out that he has some very awesome out of the camera shots, and if I could get to that level... I would feel that I have earned the right to edit my a***ss off.

God I love this forum...

bobc
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