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Old Jan 19, 2005, 7:06 PM   #31
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NickTrop wrote:
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jsiladi wrote:
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Bob is correct, if you are going to quote from another source, you should provide all information, not just a selection, to make your case.
... it's called, "taking something out of context" and it's a cheap, dispicable smear tactic regardless if it's used by a lawyer, politician, in the office, or on a forum.
Yes, I know.. I call it half truths but That's why I dug out the original full post. I don't believe anything I see on its' own merits (or lack of) these days.

:? Jeff
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 7:15 PM   #32
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Very well said, I agree. But I am a "newcomer" and photography is not my profession. The camera, for me, is a tool. And I'm learning, as gracefully and intelligentally as possible. I need this tool to photograph my work. What I know of this tool as well as others, buy the best that I can afford. I thought I made a good choice with the FZ20, particulary that this is my firstdigital. In the near future, I can purchaselens, ect and expand any talents I my develop. Which is how I came to this forum. I am grateful for any help that I'm offered. And I appreciate your patience with me as I learn. thanks. Joe
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 7:19 PM   #33
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Well, I have to agree with Bob and Digcamfan. Writing used to be almost an art form. People even took pride in their handwriting. Politeness was the rule. Now we see quick blurbs posted from people with questionable interest in the subject. Some may fancy themselves as camera experts. Who cares. Post some pics...I'll be the judge of your expertise. Rudeness and self interest seem popular personal and political lifestyles these days. If you have no patience for newcomers, start your own elitist forum where you can all try to impress each other with your knowledge. Guess what...you'll find selfish people don't care about you, anymore than you do them.

Bob...I'm with you, and I'm sure a lot of others are, too. You others, who feel some stature beyond the lowly masses, just keep your greatness to yourself...you're the ONLY ones whoare impressed.

The Scubbler ( never been good at anything....and PROUD of it ! )
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 8:13 PM   #34
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Rezajune wrote:
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bobc I understand how you might feel but I have to disagree with you because not long ago I was a newbie...but the difference between what I used to experience before the FZ20 came out is that all the forums have down graded quite a bit by this influx of newbies.

Let me explain..this is from personal experience.

you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should know how to google."

I have made that point several times...why...because I believe google is far more powerful than all the forums put together. If one googles they will see sites after sites explaining all the ABC from beginner to pro by well maintained and accurate websites. How do I know that..once again...I was a newbie and I have used google.

Remember.....the FZ cameras are treated as gods in these forums and they make the newbies feel such as nobody in the world understands how to use this cameras but us Panasonic FZ members in these Forums.....WRONG....aperture is aperture....ISO..is ISO...shutter speed is shutter speed....DOF is DOF, digital blending is Digital blending NO MATTER BRAND OF CAMERA one uses (cameras that offer manual mode!!!)

So...if you go to google and type aperture...camera iso....shutter speed and so on and so on...trust me...you will learn way more than any of us could ever explain to a newbie or anybody else...

USE GOOGLE....ITS BEYOND POWERFUL.
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This is where a basic google post in one of the stickys would be handy. Some people do not know how to google. I know it's a great tool I use it for my camera and for software development in my proffession. But some people feel lucky to have found this place... let alone know how to google.
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you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should know computers as well as they do."

well.....if somebody buys a car...they should have a drivers license, if somebody buys a bike..they should know how to ride a bike, meaning,...that if one is completely ignorant of how to use windows xp or any other operating system, or matter of fact just plugging in a USB and understanding the meaning of USB...then maybe they should not be buying a digital camera and just stick to film.....and its not fair to us or to anybody babysitting somebody and explaining every single thing to the newbie...when its their responsibility to have understood the very very basics of computing before entering the digital world.

Its like asking the car sales man to to teach you to drive the car you want to buy.....wrong...learn to drive before buying a car

If you think about it...95% of people purchasing these cameras usually are newbies in the camera field and they are stepping into a different world (manual mode is confusing) and 50% of those people never used a computer on a regular basis and relied either on photo labs to print from their SD cards or just gave it to their kids to organize and print them...and how do I know that...most of my friends call me and ask me how to plug in the USB cable to their computer after buying a digital camera for the first time.

So is this place a FZ panasonic forum or a customer service forum for all newbies?
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When people buy thesse cameras, the sales people don't tell them that they must know computers and the internet. They are just trying to sell the cameras. The people don't find out until after they have to get their pics on the computer. Some of them know enough to get on the internet and maybe find a forum like this. This would be another good thing for the sticky.
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you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should not ask stupid questions"

When I was a newbie I didn't even know how to post a picture and failed miserably trying to post an image, I went to the steves help site, did a search, and couldn't figure it out. I was so frustrated so I pm photosbyvito and asked him how to do it and he explained to me and I was still confused. Is it a stupid question, maybe, but at least I tried and tried to to search and could not find an answer.


Now what is a stupid question?!!!! A question that is clearly marked and answered already right in front of the newbie, but what does he do...skip it, ignore it, and ask it themselves. Now is that selfish, stupid, lazy, egoistical, I don't know.

Why in the world have I not asked a question besides how to post a picture, because I took my time and read and read and read most of the posts that would not only answer my questions, but turning them into a viscous cycle of gathering new information. What I mean is that i would read a past post about aperture and by doing that I would learn new things and research them.

so to me stupid equals =====no patience.

I went from buying a FZ1 because it was on sale and read good reviews to practically giving advice to semi-pro to pro photographers in less than 4 months,...how....forum and google...forums and google...forums and google....forums and google...over and over and over again.

I never needed to ask a question because not only were they answered a thousand times over, I also searched DPR Panasonic forum and DCR panasonic forum which are 20 times bigger than this forum, but I love the intimacy of this forum than any of those forums.

"So are newbies or anybody never supposed to ask a question?!!!!!!"

I never said that, what I said is, like me who has never owned a digital camera, you will have a thousand questions and they key is to take your time and not rely on anybody to speed up or or enhance your learning curve, but to only rely on your patience to search and by doing so one will learn ever more than relying on the mercy of members answering a very specific question that may or may not be as accurate or in depth as you like.

I have nothing against newbies, never have never will and welcome them anytime and I am glad they bought the same FZ's that I own, and I know I am not popular with them, but I give good advice to them because I was in their shoes once and I believe as long as there is something new to learn...then I will be a newbie for the rest of my life till I learn everything, which we all know is impossible.

God helps those who help themselves.
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Sometimes people need a little help helping themselves. Just a little nudge in the right direction. I know it's frustrating. I sometimes post advice, and it seems like the person did not even read it. So I follow the post and try to help again only to be ignored more. And sometimes the outcome of the thread turns out to be the advice that I posted in the first place. But... I still try to help anyway... And I know you do too.
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I believe this forum only will improve by senior or experience members sharing new techniques, or sharing any kind of new info, such as "I did this and it made a huge difference".....for example I shared with everybody how to improve Infrared photography (learned accidently in google) or how to increase storage without buying more SD cards (learned accidently on google once again)....this is much better than on a daily basis answering questions that have been posted a thousand times over and bumping and bumping the posts that could of benefited the whole forum.
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Again... If we had a couple stickys with all the repetative stuff, it would not eliminate, but would greatly reduce the number of repetative stuff. And more importantly... Help the newcomers.
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One more thing, never rely completely on this forum, go check out all the other forum on stevesforums.com...such as

landscape photos
close-ups
nature shooting techniques
panorama-stiching
resizing
newbie help

I have learned so much in these forums, incredible amount of information no matter what brand of camera one uses.
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Even more sticky stuff...
Thank you very much Rezajune.

In no way did I mean... You, NickTrop, willow1, smac, nzmacro, vInQuest, nooner, fmoor,and the list goes on... in this post. All of you, and many others have made great contributions to this forum, and allways try to help anyone in need.

Sure tempers flare at times (and I probably have one of the worst), but we always work it out and get back to business.

But there are a few that have posted things that lead me to believe that they are above the newcomers, and above some that have been around a while. They think that because their knowledge may be more, that it puts others beneath them.

I am not going to mention any names. They know who they are, and they are a very small number.

All of you who know me here... Know how I am... You know I may be short fused at times... But you also know that I do not hesitate to say I'm sorry... And you know that even if I get short with someone, I will still try to help that same person.

I just don't want the newcommers to suffer and be chased away by a few snobs.

Thank all of you (from the heart) for being here for everyone, and if any of you need anything... Ask Rezajune...:G

Just kidding bro...

bobc
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 8:23 PM   #35
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Well said bobc. Now, where were we.......................:?:
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 9:19 PM   #36
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As a relative Newbie to the site and FZ20 owner , I can say that I greatly appreciate those that have been so giving of their time , knowledge , and responses to questions asked here.

To those that are unwilling to respond to questions and share what they have learned , I will make the statement that in my opinion, they are takers and not givers.

Only when one becomes a giver , can he enjoy , appreciate , and be appreciated in a forum such as this.

It is petty to chastize others for trying to learn.

I will say that I have been rather hesitant to ask any more questions on this forum , due to the anti- newbie attitude that some espouse here.

I am hesitant to name the Givers on this forum , because I don't want to leave anyone out , but I will give 2 examples of posters that have the give and take philosphy that makes a board work for all. Thereasa and Bobc are great contributors that I have learned much from in my 6 weeks of online presence here. There are others who have made great posts and have propelled my learning experience with this camera. Thanks to all of you.

I hope I can get up to speed with the FZ0 soon and can help others soon.

Thanks for the great posts !


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Old Jan 19, 2005, 9:51 PM   #37
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bobc wrote:
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newbie one wrote:
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Just to refresh some peoples memories:

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So what do they do? They come here for a little help. And what do they get? They get treated like an idiot by some, and made to feel like they are lower than the people that they are hoping would help them by some.

And I say again… "by some"
But a while back another quote by Bobc

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You want to know the truth about your camera?

It's not the camera... It's you using the camera... If you want a camera that even you can use... Get a disposible one (although you may have trouble with that as well). But then you can find a disposible camera forum to post your ignorence, and be attacked by people like me who are dumber thatn you.
You complain about others bobc but you do the same.

I may be a "newbie" but ive been watching this site for a long time and everyone needs to relax and make sure this doesnt turn into some kind of witch hunt.

Just IMHO.


Now that you attempted to degrade my dedication to this foru... Why don't you be kind enough to post a link to the thread where you only posted what you wanted people to see.

I remember this thread (not by name), and as I recall this person refused to take many peoples advice, and insisted that he should not have to know anything at all about taking pictures, and that the magic camera should have taken the perfect shot for him.

Many of us tried to help him, and it turned into an insult contest. I don't remember who started it... but it surely was not me... and even after i made the comment you posted here, I cooled off and still tried to help the person.

So before you try to make me look bad by posting only the part of the story that you want people to see... try posting a link to this thread... so everyone can see the whole story...

I have over 1000 posts here, and probably 90% of them are helping others or complementing them on their pics.

And even though I might be ticked off at you right now... I would still help you if you needed it.

bobc
Don't worry about this guy bob, I emailed Panasonic and they are sending their FZ Ninja's out tonight to take care of him:G:lol:
I'm starting to wonder if shakey hands got away ? :?:

On a serious note, You have been a big help around here, to me, as well as others. Thank you!
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 11:07 PM   #38
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Fox wrote:
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Don't worry about this guy bob, I emailed Panasonic and they are sending their FZ Ninja's out tonight to take care of him:G:lol:
I'm starting to wonder if shakey hands got away ? :?

On a serious note, You have been a big help around here, to me, as well as others. Thank you!
Yes... And we all know what they do with that 72mm adapter...:O

Thanks Fox...

bobc
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 11:13 PM   #39
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Thank you all for your wonderful posts. You are all great people, and it is a pleasure to be here with all of you.

Lumix's Rock...:|:|:|

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Old Jan 20, 2005, 12:12 AM   #40
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I was thinking it would be nice for newbies to have access to a post organizer. Something that is similar to a search engine, but more geared toward camera specific issues. For example...

1. Click on SEARCH

2. Click on Pull Down for brandof camera..including an "I don't know" option.


3. Is your question about (Pulldown): Specs, Image Quality, Accessories, User Experience, Problems, Photographic Theory?

4. Type your question in this field : | |

Just a thought... This would help newbies, and scale back on advanced user frustration. I do tech support for a living. I love helping people. But I admit that even though I enjoy my job over all...there are definately days of frustration. Mostly when someone insists a unit is broke when its working properly and they just don't understand what is happening because they refuse to read the manual.

We try to train our techs the best, but even then, information is sometimes hard to get out to everyone. So we developed a tool that is basically a technote generator that follows a very similar format to what I described. Our call times, and customer/tech frustration level has gone down greatly. Something like that here would be awesome..with all the "this information may not always be correct" disclaimers of course.

FZFUN






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