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Old Mar 23, 2006, 3:36 PM   #1
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Bokeh...:drools:

I plan to buy the FZ30... but the XT along w. a nifty lens always cross my mind. :evil:

I know that the Fz30 is capable of bokeh. I've seen so many photos here of birds w. the background blurred.

My question is...can you tell me at what magnification range (or focal point) AND aperture value the the FZ30 has to be 'set' at to induce bokeh?

Particularly, w. a background as close as this one:

http://www.deviantart.com/view/29026472/

Vets, I know you probably know this by now. So please help me out.

I know that a DSLR is the perfect camera for this...but it's gonna cost me nearly a thousand dollars to get fast lens w. a reasonable focal range. And no Konica 5d suggestions! :P I'm not very impressed w. its image quality. And I very much prefer Canon's XT over it.
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 4:24 PM   #2
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what about a nikon d50?
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 4:46 PM   #3
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Birds are one thing, full length portraits are another thing entirely.

See this Depth of Field calculator, making sure to use the actual versus 35mm equivalent focal lengths.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Keep in mind that if you use longer focal lengths, you'll need to shoot from further away for your subject to fill the same percentage of the frame.

So, Depth of Field doesn't really change by using a longer focal length at most ranges where you'll want a shallower depth of field (since the requirement to shoot from further away to achieve the same framing cancels out the DOF differences).

But, by shooting from futher away, you'll have a different perspective, with the more compressed background giving the illusion of a greater depth of field.

Depth of Field was not all that shallow in your sample.

So, you could probably get away with about as much background blur as the sample in the link you posted using a Panasonic Ultra-Zoom Model. Just open the aperture up (shoot at f/2.8 and zoom in, which will require you to shoot from further away) and shoot. Make sure to frame just as tight (headshot versus more of the subject).

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know that a DSLR is the perfect camera for this...but it's gonna cost me nearly a thousand dollars to get fast lens w. a reasonable focal range.
Again, the depth of field in that particular sample wasn't really that shallow for a head shot. If you want shallower, you could probably achieve it using a DSLR with something as inexpensive as a 50mm f/1.8 (under $100 brand new for a lens like that from most of the major manufacturers).

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And no Konica 5d suggestions! :P I'm not very impressed w. its image quality.
OK -- I won't suggest one. Minolta 100mm f/2, with the aperture wide open at f/2. Shot with a KM 5D on a dreary morning while out fishing with my brother-in-law.

[img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/JIMCOC%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/img]
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 5:15 PM   #4
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One more ... Focus on closest eye. Wide open at f/2 with a Minolta 100mm f/2, taken with a KM 5D (but, I won't recommend one since you think the image quality is too bad).

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Old Mar 23, 2006, 5:33 PM   #5
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OK -- It doesn't have anti-shake with every lens, and it doesn't have ISO 3200. See this thread:

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...amp;forum_id=9

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Old Mar 23, 2006, 5:51 PM   #6
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Thanks a lot Jim. The bokeh from the photo you've posted is definately something!

But I know the Pany's limitations so I'm not asking for that shallow a DOF.
I'll be very pleased if the FZ30 is capable of inducing blur like the one in the photo ive showed you and you said it is..and I sure hope you're right :blah: because I'm gonna buy the DMCFZ30 the first moment I get the chance.

There are limitations to any camera.
The thing about SLRS is that they cost a lot of money and they lack some features that P&S cameras have ( that are necessary for candid photography).

You talked about the cheap nifty fifty lens...but a prime is kinda limiting, especially for candid st photography which I plan to do. A zoom lens gives you more control w/o having to move around and attract people's attention. The Fz30's tiltable LCD screen allows for even more 'secrecy' by making waist-lv shots possible.

The only SLR that has the tiltable lcd option is the Olympus E330 (w. lcd live preview) but it's retailed at $1000. That, plus a f2.0 50mm (100mm) lens will cost me around $1500. :O Not to mention that the e330's image quality is a tad too soft for my tastes.

I do know the FZ30's limitations. Noise is an absolute killer at higher ISO's..but fortunately, it is not that visible when you (greatly :P) reduce the image size. And I think that an ISO of 400 along w. the maximum aperture range of f.3.7 will allow for some decent subway shots..






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Old Mar 23, 2006, 5:59 PM   #7
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Another thing about Konica..they were bought over by Sony, weren't they? The company's future kinda worries me.

But admittedly Yes, IS on every lens is an awesome feature.

JimC wrote:
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OK -- It doesn't have anti-shake with every lens, and it doesn't have ISO 3200. See this thread:

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...amp;forum_id=9
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 6:02 PM   #8
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Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing you a bit over the XT.

I've got shots that would be impossible with an XT (shutter speeds would be too slow with one to hand hold the camera, lack of ISO 3200) using a KM 5D.

There are pros and cons to any of them. For low light work, I keep a 28mm f/2 on my KM 5D more often than not. Yep, you don't have the flexbility of a zoom with one. But, they are small, bright and sharp, and a prime is not as limiting as you think. I'll take a prime over a zoom any day of the week for low light use.

As for more depth of field with a model like a Panasonic, that's probably a good thing in most conditions, and you can get some nice background blur from one at longer focal lengths with the aperture opened up to f/2.8 (just make sure to frame tight -- going for a head shot versus a full length shot).

You're limited with a DSLR using a bright lens in low light because your DOF is very shallow at wider apertures, and when you stop down the aperture for more depth of field, you begin to lose the benefits of higher ISO speeds compared to a non-DSLR model with a bright lens. Any choice is a compromise.

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Old Mar 23, 2006, 6:10 PM   #9
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dissembled wrote:
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Another thing about Konica..they were bought over by Sony, weren't they? The company's future kinda worries me.
I wouldn't worry about it. It's probably best for the long run, thanks to Sony's deep pockets.

Sony is one of the largest sensor suppliers in the world, and supplies sensors to most manufacturers for many of their non-DSLR models. If you use an Olympus, Konica-Minolta, Nikon, Pentax, or Canon non-DSLR camera, there's a good chance it's got a Sony sensor in it.

They also supply the sensors for Nikon, Pentax, and Konica-Minolta DSLR models, and by launching their own DSLR lineup, they don't have to worry about buying sensors from someone else, lowering their R&D cost for new products (while still supplementing revenue by selling sensors to the "other guys".

In addition, Sony is number 3 in market share in Digital Camera sales in the U.S. behind Kodak and Canon (and number 2 worldwide).

They've already announced their intent to capture 25% of the DSLR market, too. So, I wouldn't underestimate them, and they've already got a huge distribution network in place to market DSLR models.

I'm sure you'll be seeing new lenses announced, too. Third party suppliers are still announcing new lenses for KM models. For that matter, in just the past month, Tamron and Sigma have announced more lenses that will be available in Minolta mount.

I'm keeping an eye on the new Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 to see how well it's received. It's designed only for DSLR models with sensors smaller than 35mm film. So, it's going to be smaller and lighter compared to a lens designed for 35mm models.

http://www.tamron.co.jp/en/news/rele...s0215_a16.html

I'm also keeping an eye on the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC that Sigma has decided to make available in Konica Minolta mount, for when I need something brighter than my Minolta 28mm f/2 provides in very low light clubs and restaurants with live music in the area (and the Sigma will be available at a much lower price point compared to a Minolta 35mm f/1.4G, too).

Minolta has manufactured 16 Million Lenses in Maxxum/Dynax mount since this mount was introduced in 1985.

That's a lot of lenses in the market (and that doesn't even included third party lenses in this lens mount from Tamron, Tokina, Sigma, Vivitar/Cosina, etc.).

Even Canon (which has been making DSLR models for much longer, with a huge number of users), has only manufactured 32 Million lenses in their EF mount.

So, even though we're seeing some short term "panic buying" in the used market impacting supply, what lens is going to be harder to find on the used market...many times the users of Canon DSLR models trying to pick between 32 Million lenses, or a small number of KM DSLR owners in comparison, trying to find deals with 16 Million lenses in the market?

Also, KM is not going out of business. They've just decided to stop selling cameras under the Konica Minolta brand name. They'll still be making cameras and lenses for Sony (as the OEM supplier).

That Sony will be selling cameras and lenses in Minolta mount is not a new thing. That was announced a LONG time before KM decided to stop selling cameras. So, models with a Sony brand name have been "in the works" for quite a while now, and they've announced their intent to launch them this summer.

Sony DSLR models using the Minolta Maxxum/Dynax mount have been in the works since last July.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/digin....html#sony_slr

We've already got a new Nikon models using Sony's 10 and 12 Megapixel sensors, and Pentax has announced a DSLR that will be 10MP (probably using a Sony CCD, as do their existing DSLR models).

I have no doubt that we'll be seeing higher resolution models from Sony that can use Minolta Maxxum Mount lenses, too (and I have zero doubt we'll be seeing some new lenses announced, too).

I got a KM DSLR myself (KM 5D), and I wouldn't trade it for another model for my needs.

A news story from last month:

Quote:
Sony Aims For Quarter Share of DSLR Market

Following Konica Minolta Holding Inc.'s announcement of withdrawal from the arena of the imaging business and an agreement to transfer Konica Minolta's assets related to R&D as well as manufacturing of DSLRs to Sony Corp., an official of Sony said on Jan. 20 it would aim for at least a quarter of share in the DSLR camera market in a few years, reports PEN News Weekly.

Sony commands the second-largest share of the digicam market after Canon, but its operations have been focused mainly on compact models, missing lucrative DSLRs and interchangeable lenses to warrant a push. Canon and Nikon dominate the DSLR market with a combined market share of nearly 90 percent.

Through acquisition of the right to use the Konica Minolta's Alpha/Maxxum mount system, access to manufacturing/designing technology and R&D/manufacturing assets (though Konica Minolta retains its patents), Sony plans a big push to high-end digicam market including DSLRs, to chip away at Canon's dominant market position, says PEN News Weekly.

Yutaka Nakagawa, president of Sony's digital imaging business group, told reporters that the company "will target for at least 20-25 percent of the world digicam market, and even a higher share as far as DSLRs are concerned, by making the most of its advantage," ie., its capability to make key devices such as CCDs, lenses and LCDs. He continued: "Because there are only a few players in the DSLR market, we would like to grab an even bigger market share. We wish to nurture our DSLR segment to a business that accounts for more than 20 percent of our total revenue from digicam sales in the near future."

Sony plans to roll out its first high-end DSLR model jointly developed with Konica Minolta this summer. The company plans to entrust manufacture of its DSLRs to Konica Minolta's Malaysian company through capital participation. A certain number of designers and engineers may be transferred from Konica Minolta to Sony, but details are not disclosed, says PEN News Weekly. (Source: Photo Marketing Association's Newsline International)
Besides, you can take hand held shots like this with one. Taken 20 minutes after sunset with a KM 5D at ISO 1600 using a 28mm f/2 (a quick hand held snapshot while waiting to board a dinner cruise).


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 6:14 PM   #10
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It's possible to get bokeh using smaller apertures right?

Take a look at Red's shots:
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...mp;forum_id=23

The second photo has an EXIF data attached noting that the shot was taken w. a f. 5.6 aperture.

And this was taken from his car window, 6ft away.
Bokeh is already evident here. So unless the Panda program is wrong..I dunno. I sure hope not.
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