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Old Apr 6, 2006, 3:54 AM   #41
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Noise is certainly NOT an issue in those kind of shots. And the FZ30 does a better job in exposure and color rendition in many cases. It is a very fine camera.
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Old Apr 6, 2006, 4:53 AM   #42
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Here is another example of the advantage of agreater depth of field. FZ30:


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Old Apr 6, 2006, 4:54 AM   #43
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KM5D


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Old Apr 6, 2006, 6:20 AM   #44
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rduve wrote:
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KM5D
That shows well how short DOF can be serious disadvantage, IMO that lack of focus is already badly disturbing.
Also in macrophotography non-SLRs much deeper DOF is big advantage.

BTW, were did that cactus leave thorns? :-)



iason wrote:
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Especially, Canon has got lots of brand fans. (Myself also got a Canon) But "like as wearing googles of a horse" somehow, Canon S2 is said miles ahead of FZ7, because of the noise problem. Somebody, please look at the samples of Steve in ISO 400, and tell me which photo is more noisy?
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2006_...s/p1000048.jpg
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_...s/IMG_0048.JPG
Well, I'm not an expert, but I can simply say for Pana, the quality is better and noise is much less than S2!
Much more incamera noise removing.
Here's Canon's shot processed quickly with Noise Ninja:
http://rapidshare.de/files/16698224/...essed.JPG.html
Now again noise in this is much less irritating than very blotchy chroma noise in FZ7's image, which is propably such heavily processed that getting rid of that noise in post processsing requires washing everything.

And how that brand fanatism differs from zoom fanatism, touting that big zoom number means better camera?

samerlr wrote:
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I believe that Noise is a relative subject some swear by the Fuji S9000 have very low noise
Now here we really come to second part of equation, incamera noise removing which Fuji does especially well.
Here's RAW shots without Fuji's heavy noise removing:
http://www.videozona.ru/photo_tests/...Z30_page05.asp
(converted with Adobe Camera Raw)
Could be said that all PR touting about low noise sensor is mostly pure BS.


So equally important as sensor is good RAW conversion and processing.
No matter how good sensor is results can be bad if processing isn't done right. Even such bad that best possible processing can get much more out from worser sensor.

zygh wrote:
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For instance, the Samsung Pro815 noise level is way above the FZ30's but nobody seems to make a big deal about that.
Here we come again to processing, Panasonic seems to have really good incamera RAW conversion and NR processing which doesn't destroy all details, all actually sharpens image well after that.

Then again cameras using over two years old Sony 2/3" sensor seem to use equally old processsing as sensor is, fortunately most cameras with it doesn't overprocess images.

For comparison here's quickly post processed KonicaMinolta A2's ISO400 and 800 noise test shots from Steve's review:
http://rapidshare.de/files/14515406/...essed.exe.html (self extracting RAR-archive)

All details aren't very sharp, but that comes mostly from very mediocre incamera RAW conversion/processing.
KM A200 has better incamera processing than A2 and still much better details can be achieved by using RAW with good conversion:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/koni...200/page12.asp
Shouldn't be hard to realize those noise test shots would very propably look quite different if taken in RAW and processed right.


So whole noise level in high ISO (&remaining details) question is much more complicated than just looking JPEGs camera spews out and only 100% fair and equal comparison would taking test photos in RAW and comparing them after good RAW conversion/processing.
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Old Apr 6, 2006, 7:56 AM   #45
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rduve wrote:
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By the way, since this forum is about the Panasonic FZ30, I still keep that one too, and it more than rivals the KM5D in regularly lit situations at ISO100 or less. And there are times when the greater DoF is an advantage, and others when it is a disadvantage. So, I like to have both cameras, depending on the situation. If you can afford just one, it's a tough call. There are pretty decent Sigma and Tamron lenses available for the KM5D with a 28-300 range, making it an all-in-one camera with IS, equalling the zoom range of the FZ30 for just a couple of hundred bucks more in overall price...I would not know which way to go, I like them both, but I'd probably pick the KM5D.
I was dead set on the fz30 (I reallyenjoy manualzoom)until I heard about the noiseof course its hard to miss. I wouldn't care about it because my pictures are rarely or never above 8x10. My pictures with my canon a95 in the high school gym are terribly noisy and very dark, and when everyone found out that I am taking pictures like that,they said myfz30 pictures would be very similiar. Since my photography consists of 50% low light gym shots and 50% outdoor soccer shots,I would like one camera for all occasions.Cant afford both either.

I understand that I will need 2 lens. I thought the couple hundred bucks more was worth it to get the picture quality at the light situation Iwill be shooting at???
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Old Apr 6, 2006, 11:39 AM   #46
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bethel02 wrote:
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rduve wrote:
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By the way, since this forum is about the Panasonic FZ30, I still keep that one too, and it more than rivals the KM5D in regularly lit situations at ISO100 or less. And there are times when the greater DoF is an advantage, and others when it is a disadvantage. So, I like to have both cameras, depending on the situation. If you can afford just one, it's a tough call. There are pretty decent Sigma and Tamron lenses available for the KM5D with a 28-300 range, making it an all-in-one camera with IS, equalling the zoom range of the FZ30 for just a couple of hundred bucks more in overall price...I would not know which way to go, I like them both, but I'd probably pick the KM5D.
I was dead set on the fz30 (I reallyenjoy manualzoom)until I heard about the noiseof course its hard to miss. I wouldn't care about it because my pictures are rarely or never above 8x10. My pictures with my canon a95 in the high school gym are terribly noisy and very dark, and when everyone found out that I am taking pictures like that,they said myfz30 pictures would be very similiar. Since my photography consists of 50% low light gym shots and 50% outdoor soccer shots,I would like one camera for all occasions.Cant afford both either.

I understand that I will need 2 lens. I thought the couple hundred bucks more was worth it to get the picture quality at the light situation Iwill be shooting at???

Oh, absolutely, for indoor gym shots the DSLR with a fast lens is the way togo. Look at the difference in these two. FZ's are particularly weak (as all small sensor digicams) when it comes to low light action shots. That's where the DSLR shines in comparison. Oh and one more thing: I find the manual zoom in the FZ30 all but useless. It is much harder to get the focus right through the EVF than it is through the lens of an SLR, and forget about it in action shots. The Continuous Auto Focus with Subject Tracking and predictive focusing is another great advantage the KM5D has over the FZ30. It tracks a moving subject (like an athlete) and keeps it in focus even if it comes toward you at high speed. For indoor sports shots, no question: Get the DSLR!

#1 taken with the FZ20 plus flash (threre was no way to take it without flash)


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Old Apr 6, 2006, 11:41 AM   #47
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#2 KM5D similar lighting, handheld, no flash.

So, to answer the original question of thistopic: "Why is noise the 'be all and end all' deciding factor?" For indoor shooting, especially sports, this is why!



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Old Apr 6, 2006, 3:51 PM   #48
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Thanks for all of your help. like people say a picture is worth 1000 words, and just seeing those helped tremendously. Now I just have to figure out where to get it and save up a little more money. I guess I will move to the Konica Minoltaforum for questions like this.

THANK YOU
beth


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Old Apr 6, 2006, 4:56 PM   #49
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Here is a place that has a good price on it. http://www.prestigecamera.com/produc...mx5-digkit.htm. Just make sure they don't sell you a bunch of junky, overpriced accessories.
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Old Apr 6, 2006, 9:12 PM   #50
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That's a gray market camera without a US manufacturer's warranty.

These guys have a very bad reputation, and have been accused of padding thier own ratings. See this note at resellerratings.com:

"We detected and disabled 50+ fraudulent "Very Satisfied" reviews for this merchant. Due to the continuous submission of said reviews, we are no longer accepting new reviews for this store as of 1/19/2006."

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1995.html

Comments from the Better Business Bureau:

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http://www.newyork.bbb.org/reports/b...1&id=68047



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