Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital Cameras (Point and Shoot) > Panasonic / Leica

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Jul 17, 2006, 11:36 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
bayourebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,561
Default

Geez, Dave

Why don't you just rip her heart out. You are correct in that your comments are harsh. Her title was Storms and Barns, and that is exactly whather photos convey. She also said she was new at this, and her first post. Were you an expert in the beginning? Maybe you are a great photographer, but I do believe you were as you said "HARSH."Instead of offering suggestions to improve the photos, you litterally ripped each one apart.

P.S. I am also new at this and have a lot to learn. Thanks to others on the forum, I believe I have learned a lot, because they have offeredsuggestions on how to improve the photo, and telling me where to get information and even how to do some of it. And yes, I have posted somephotos that I thought were good, but instead of telling me they were terrible, they suggested what to try next, and how to do some post processing. These are things we all have to learn.

Good luck, and looking forward to more of your photos.





bayourebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 18, 2006, 2:08 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Rockingham Western Australia
Posts: 592
Default

I am with you on this Jerry (bayourebel). Criticism without being constructive is disheartening and vey unfair to any contributor who states that it is their first attempt.

Personally, I thought the grey sky scene illuminated against the black forground was quite impressive and if the foreground had been more detailed, it would have detracted from the scene.

The barn picture was good, perhaps more so in the black and white version but I think it would have been even better with a bit of processing in colour.

Keep it going Annie and like Jerry, I look forward to more of your work....Fred
Bootneck3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 5:08 PM   #13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Default

You don't like my comments, so be it. I happen to think my comments were slightly more accurate than ....

"Hi! Annie, Beautiful photos, love all of them. ..:"


Just tell me the point in saying a bad shot is a good shot ? Do you really think that helps them take a better shot the next time around?

dave

DaveMcGee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 6:31 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
squirl033's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,720
Default

i think the point here, Dave, is that your criticism was not only overly harsh, but also sadly lacking in any suggestions for improvement. it's one thing to critique a photo and offer ideas to help the photographer learn and grow. it's another to simply slam her work, especially when she had clearly indicated it was her first attempt.

i've been around this forum for quite a while, and although some of my more recent work has gotten some measure of recognition and acclaim bothin this forumand beyond, i can tell you that my first posts were by no means stellar work! but through the constructive criticism, tips, and suggestions i got from other members here, i learned a lot, and the encouragementthey offered made me actually believe i could take good photos, and made me want to keep learning and trying to perfect my skills. as aresult, myphotoswill soonappearing in calendars, on CD covers, and even in National Geographic magazine.

it's fine to critique a photo, especially if the poster asks for feedback, but it's not helpful to anyone to simply criticize the photos without offering any ideas or suggestions for improvement - especially for a first attempt. comments like "no redeeming features" don'tdo anyone any good.we're all here to share and learn,and although i suspect your intentions were good, unfortunately, your "critique" was about like weeding the garden with a bulldozer...
squirl033 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 7:05 PM   #15
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Default

"i think the point here, Dave, is that your criticism was not only overly harsh, but also sadly lacking in any suggestions for improvement."

"The barn shot in colour does look better in greyscale, though the image is noisy, using an IR effect would possibly of enhanced the image more than the greyscale."

looks like a suggestion from where I'm sat.

You are of course entitled to your opinion on how comments should be phrased with regards to other peoples pictures, just as I am entitled to mine....I find your critism in no way constructive.


I have looked back overs the images to see if I was a little harsh, I don't think so. Im sure the next set will be better...will my harshness have a positive effect, who knows ? will comments like " Beautiful photos, love all of them" help annie improve, Not A Chance.
DaveMcGee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 7:59 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
squirl033's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,720
Default

"The barn shot in colour does look better in greyscale" - a personal opinion, but not a suggestion for improvement.

"...though the image is noisy, using an IR effect would possibly of enhanced the image more than the greyscale.looks like a suggestion from where I'm sat." - grammatical failings aside, did you offer any suggestions as to how to clean up the noise you saw, or how to use an "IR effect"? what exactly are you referring to - an IR filter, which may or may not even be available for the camera she uses, or a post-processing technique that she may or may not have access to or even understand? beginning photographers do not often know these things, and telling them to attempt effects or processes without some idea of what tools to use isn't much good.

you may not find my suggestions helpful, but that's your problem, not mine, since you don't seem to recognize the concepts of constructive criticism or tact. you've only posted on these forumsa handful oftimes,and ihaven't seen any of your work, so i can't judge your level of skill, but if you're half as good as you seem to think you are, i'm sure we'd all love to see some examples... i expect we could all learn from them.
squirl033 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 8:27 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
annie57's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,613
Default

I do not know what to say to all of you except thank you for your support. And I too want, and desperately need, help but I have to say that I did feel a bit hurt by the way it was phrased!! Maybe I was too sensitive, another member was very kind when I emailed him, I don't know. I am still figuring out what all the terminology means as well.

All of the posters I have seen on this site are fantastic in my opinion and are way out of my league. If some of these photos were in a book, as was discussed in another forum, I would purchase it.

Thanks Again,

Anne






annie57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 8:36 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
bayourebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,561
Default

"Hi! Annie, Beautiful photos, love all of them. ..:"


"Just tell me the point in saying a bad shot is a good shot ? Do you really think that helps them take a better shot the next time around?"


Dave, I happen to like her photos and you don't. And of course, you are definitely entitled to your opinion. You are 100% correct that my comment will not help her take better photos, but on the other hand, it will not destroy the motivation that caused her to buy the camera in the first place. It was not my intent to get into a confrontation. As I said I am also a newbie, and do not question your photography expertise.

I know that with given light conditions, there will be certain lightingconsiderations and camera settings one can use. But I have yet to learn how to make one part of a scene in a certain light condition appear brighter, more definitive, without whitewashing the rest of the scene. My post was only to say that even I would have appreciated suggestions as to how to improve the photos, but not make it look like a piece of art in the museum, but more like what I was seeing at the moment.

Looking forward to seeing some of your work and learning how you went about it. This would definitely be a help to me. I have an FZ30 which is much more camera than I ever had.

Jerry
bayourebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 9:17 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
squirl033's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,720
Default

Annie,

while i don't like the tone of Dave McGee's critique - it is harsh and tactless, whether he's willing to admit it or not- he does have some valid points.

first of all, composition trumps almost everything in photography... a good, well-composed shot taken with a 2mp pocket camera will be better than a poorly composed shot with a 10mp DSLR any day, and no sophisticated camera or software can make a poor composition better.cameras only capture what the photographer points thelens at, and if the composition is weak, the end result will be poor, regardless of how many megapixels the camera has or how sharp or clean the image is. i've seen a lot of crystal clear, perfectly exposed pictures - many taken with DSLRs and expensive lenses -thatquite frankly made me wonder why the photographereven wasted the energy topress the shutter,because there was nothing of interest in the photo. conversely,i've seen shots that were noisy, or not very well exposed,ortaken with low-resolution cameras, but because the composition and subject were good, they still caught my eye and my interest.

a good photo needs something to grab the viewer's attention, some central theme or object to catch the eye. the first couple of pictures don't seem to have that. the first image needs to be brightened up to reveal what's in the foreground, even if you lose some of the sky. otherwise, it's just a dark silhouette of the landscape with some clouds. unfortunately, the landscape in this photo lacks any real "object" to catch the viewer's attention. try composing the shot with something in the foreground, a building, a tree, something to make the viewer want to look more closely at the picture. also, try including a little more landscape and less sky... gray, turbulent clouds may look dramatic in person, but with rare exceptions, they don't look nearly as imposing in a photograph.

your photo of the tree doesn't really convey what i suspect you were trying to... it's too close, too tight a crop. that one would probably look better if you were to back up, or zoom out with your lens a bit, to show more of the surrounding area. as it is, it's too "busy", lots of fine detail, but not quite enough of the overall area to show what happened.is the tree lying on its side, or is that just a branch? was it blown over, uprooted by a storm, or are we just looking at bark and leaves?we can't tell, and the image loses impact because of that. try to compose your shots so that a viewer can see the point of the image, and if you want the photo to tell a story, try to show enough of the subject to make it clear what's happening. for instance, if you want to convey the power of a storm, you'd take a photo of an uprooted tree showing the roots or the shattered trunk, not the foliage pr brancheslying on the ground.

the photos of the barn and the hay-rolls have a nice, pastoral feel to them, and there's a clearer idea of your subject, which is good. i suspect you were attempting to show the ominous look of the clouds, but again, unless clouds are either dramatically colorful (as in a spectacular sunset)or exceptionally menacing, or in some other way unique, they don't make for very interesting photos. i also prefer the color to the black and white. B&W photos really need a lot of texture and contrast to work well, and this shot is simply too gray. too much mid-tone in the subject, and not enough contrast in the field or the sky. i'd stick with color for shots like this, and save the B&W for closer views of old buildings or farm equipment (B&W is great for conveying a sense of age or decrepitude), or in some cases, "character" photos of people. in this scene, perhaps taking the shot from closer to the ground, or in vertical format to emphasize the vastness of the field (since the barn is so far away anyhow), would be a better way to go...

the last photo... while it appears the sky was pretty threatening, it still doesn't really havea central focus. the landscape is too dark to tell if there's anything going on, and too much sky. try to compose shots like this so that the landscape is at least a third of the vertical dimension of the photo, and include something in the foreground. since it looks like you live in -or close to- a rural area, perhaps a silo or a grain storage tower might lend some interest to the image. just be sure to put something in there to catch the viewer's attention, and make him or her want to look closer.

i'd also recommend practicing the techniques of focus and exposure lock, which you can do with your FZ30. in these photos, your camera appears to have used the sky as a baseline for metering the exposure, and since the sky is (relatively) brighter than the landscape, the camera exposed the sky properly and turned the landscape in to a black silhouette. check your owners' manual, but i thinkif you focus on the distant landscape, rather than the sky, and half-press the shutter, the camera will focus and meter on that portion of the image, and you canthen holdthe shutter half-pressed while yourecompose the picture to include more sky if you wish before taking the shot. that way, the foreground will come out properly exposed. the sky will be a bit brighter, but you'll be able to see a lot more in the photo.

don't get discouraged if your first attempts don't come out as well as you'd like. the beauty of digital is that once you have the camera, memory, batteries, etc., photography is free! you can shoot all you want, and keep only the ones you like. that makes it much more fun - to say nothing of affordable - to shoot LOTS of pictures, and shooting lots of pictures is the key to getting better. practice, practice, practice, and don't be afraid to ask questions. there are lots of great people on this forum who are more than happy to answer, offer suggestions and tips, and generally help you develop your skills...





squirl033 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2006, 10:01 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
bayourebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,561
Default

Squirrl, thanks. I printedyourlast post out, to read and re-read. I am sure this is probably what Dave meant.

Composition? Something to catch the eye immediately, much like your bubble photo? I never thought of it that way. From your critique, I admit that Dave has valid points,wish he had explained himselfin more detail. I went back and looked at the photos again, and I do see what you mean. Guess I have a long way to go or just give up, however, I intend to keep plugging for awhile. I doubt that I will ever reach NG status but then, heck, I am just happy when I do get a decent photo.

Old dog, new tricks!!!?:?

P. S. Dave, don't give up on us amateurs, help us. I know that is why I am here.

Jerry
bayourebel is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:47 PM.