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Old Jun 21, 2007, 5:17 AM   #21
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snostorm wrote:
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"Of course I suppose you also don't believe light isn't particulate fluid matter either do you? Has waves and interference just like waves in a pond do. (Why do you think a polarizer works? ITS ALL about physical/particulate wave interferance)"


Light is definitely not "particulate fluid matter".
I'm not even going beyond the first sentence.....

Man, you REALLY need to go back to a HS physics class.... and maybe PAY ATTENTION this time!

It absolutely IS and behaves like a fluid in all its wave propogation charateristics as well.... again why do you think a POLARIZER works as it does.... cancels out waves just the way conflicting waves in a liquid medium do. Just the waves in the water are much lower frequency.

{Detail... you are setting up a 180 degree out of phase standing wave to cancel out another but all other light coming from other angles remain.... and it optimal at 90 degress E-W (assuming source is N) to light source becaue all light is incidentally reflectect not direct or completely reflected} The exception being the sunglass/photo factor.... but again where the because of the reflection is near 180 deg out of phase with the direct light.

Its also Elecromagnetic Waves that just happen to be visible to us, where as radio waves aren't... want to dispute that one too? And what we would consider very low frequency radio waves are audible to dogs and some other animals. A dog could hear DSL... but because we can't rides well unoticeably on a phone line.... the filters are for it stability, being it starts JUST above the often overmodulated audio...not our comfort. As I recall starts at about 25KHz..... even most youngsters don't hear much over 20KHz.

May stand for Digital Subscriber Line, but still an Analog medium of transfer. And why it only works on old analog copper lines not new fiber unless IFITL is in place which is NOT DSL.

Then again most people don't think of AIR as a fluid..... well until they encounter a tornado or hurricane.... it absolutely is too..... not like getting hit with a wall of water.... but it is a fluid.... just much less dense...until it gets real stirred up....... and light behaves differently in water as well because of the density... as any under water photographer with instantly tell you.

PS also why you can by phase reversing/canceling take a mono vocal trackout of a otherwise steroe music song and make it Karioki workable. Just reverse the polarity (therefore phase by 180 deg mono vocals vanish (or at least HIGHLY muted) but stereo dynamic music stays.

Its ALL the same thng just at different frequencies

Now just one last thing for you to ponder if light is NOT a praticle why does it BLEACH and ROT things????? That is an absolutely physical or chemical (again physical) thing.

So yes in the end it light is both fluid and particulate behaving.

Mabe smaller particulates than you ever paid attention to..... let alone physics class you even remotely paid attention to but yet light IS both particulate and fluid.

Let alone makes plants work giving us our oxegen for their CO2 that hasn't gone WAY out of wack.... given more of us than ever and still SLAUTERING trees.

God say go forth and be fruitfull NOT GO FORTH AND RAPE!!!!

And you think we mean ANYTHING.... except fort the concrete we leave behind we will be a very MINOR PARASITIC hiccup of planet earth at the rate we are going..... planet is going no where for another 5 million years.... we are going to make another century even?

OK maybe that is bending stuff a little to much... but comes back to a serious photographer that not undersatanding LIGHT IS particulate fluxing dynamic matter that just IS.... in the begining where we all treuely come from... fused attoms and environment.... Maybe GOD did that.... maybe just cosmic accident..... haven't heard of any cosmic accident causing a WAR yet... VARIOUS religions better than yours.... Religion....TO NO END.... but our own

Then again manybe like the dinosaurs that FAR out lived us..... just a big asteroid will do us in to and thew EAR$TH will finnaly say THANK GOD that parasite is gone.
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Old Jun 21, 2007, 9:57 AM   #22
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Ah I get it now ….. Its all gods fault and corvairfan should pray to Saint Ansel and ask for forgiveness for his use of cheap filter.
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Old Jun 21, 2007, 5:03 PM   #23
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Heyward,

I'm not even going beyond the first sentence.....

I'm not surprised -- a reasoned point by point discussion is about the last thing I expected

Man, you REALLY need to go back to a HS physics class.... and maybe PAY ATTENTION this time!

I'm sure that you paid attention, the problem is that you didn't get it.
Here's a simple summary of wave vs particle theory you might be able to understand:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mod1.html

Here's someone who even refutes the one area where particle theory seems to be more plausible:

http://www.physicsmyths.org.uk/photons.htm


It absolutely IS and behaves like a fluid in all its wave propogation charateristics as well....

Another illustration of your confusion. Light is energy -- this is not very arguable. Waves are a manifestation of energy applied to matter. The fluid is the medium. The difference is that in the example of ripples in a pond, the individual molecules of water don't move with the wave front, they just oscillate vertically. An illustration of this would be a small leaf floating on the water. When you toss a rock to one side, the leaf is not carried away by the first wave and washed as far as the wave is evident, it just bobs up and down as the succesive ripples move past it. Light does not need a medium to move through. Light, in and of itself moves -- or perhaps you'd like to expound on ether theory as well.

again why do you think a POLARIZER works as it does.... cancels out waves just the way conflicting waves in a liquid medium do. Just the waves in the water are much lower frequency.

{Detail... you are setting up a 180 degree out of phase standing wave to cancel out another but all other light coming from other angles remain.... and it optimal at 90 degress E-W (assuming source is N) to light source becaue all light is incidentally reflectect not direct or completely reflected} The exception being the sunglass/photo factor.... but again where the because of the reflection is near 180 deg out of phase with the direct light.


Polarization does not work by cancelling waves (that's called interference, where equal out of phase waves cancel each other out), or are you saying that a polarizing filter emits light waves that are specifically equal in amplitude and frequency, and 180 degrees out of phase to all light waves that aren't in a specific plane, or perhaps it emits "anti light" to all light waves that aren't in the polarizing plane. I didn't realize that those filters were so sophisticated, and they don't even need an energy source!

My understanding is that a polarizing filter blocks and/or absorbs light waves that are not on axis -- makes a lot of sense to me -- doesn't need a power source (or are you saying that polarizing filters create their own energy to generate these opposing waves? -- and if you're saying that it reverses the amplitude of the nonconforming waves and reflects them -- wouldn't there be a darker area in front of the filter? ) Perhaps we should all invest in polarizing filter technology to avoid the energy crisis and run our cars.

Its also Elecromagnetic Waves that just happen to be visible to us, where as radio waves aren't... want to dispute that one too? And what we would consider very low frequency radio waves are audible to dogs and some other animals. A dog could hear DSL... but because we can't rides well unoticeably on a phone line.... the filters are for it stability, being it starts JUST above the often overmodulated audio...not our comfort. As I recall starts at about 25KHz..... even most youngsters don't hear much over 20KHz.

May stand for Digital Subscriber Line, but still an Analog medium of transfer. And why it only works on old analog copper lines not new fiber unless IFITL is in place which is NOT DSL.


There was no mention of disputing that light acted as electomagnetic waves . . . that was actually my point -- but I guess you missed that. The rest of this is pointless posturing, trying to sound like you're knowledgeable about something, and irrelevant to the subject.

Then again most people don't think of AIR as a fluid..... well until they encounter a tornado or hurricane.... it absolutely is too..... not like getting hit with a wall of water.... but it is a fluid.... just much less dense...until it gets real stirred up....... and light behaves differently in water as well because of the density... as any under water photographer with instantly tell you.

PS also why you can by phase reversing/canceling take a mono vocal trackout of a otherwise steroe music song and make it Karioki workable. Just reverse the polarity (therefore phase by 180 deg mono vocals vanish (or at least HIGHLY muted) but stereo dynamic music stays.

Its ALL the same thng just at different frequencies

You're correct that it's all the same thing. . . irrelevant to the discussion. . .

Now just one last thing for you to ponder if light is NOT a praticle why does it BLEACH and ROT things????? That is an absolutely physical or chemical (again physical) thing.

So you're saying that something has to be a particle to react with a substance? So heat would be a particle -- it melts things, burns things, speeds up chemical reactions. It would also follow that if you heated up a beam of light with radiant energy, it would change color or get brighter, as you would raise its energy level, and since it can't exceed the speed of light (relativity theory again) it would have to change in amplitude or wavelength . . . but then thats wave theory again.

So yes in the end it light is both fluid and particulate behaving.

I long ago granted you the point that light can behave as particles do, but it does not act as a fluid, since being a fluid is a state of matter, and light is not matter. I also said that it does, however conform to the properties of electromagnetic energy more than it does particles, and that it would be more correct to call it a form of energy that in one way at least behaves as it is made up of particle-like packets. . . but I guess you didn't read past the first sentence. . .

Mabe smaller particulates than you ever paid attention to..... let alone physics class you even remotely paid attention to but yet light IS both particulate and fluid.

Again, light could not be matter -- matter, by definition, has mass and volume. Light can have neither, since matter, when accelerated to the speed of light, approaches infinite mass -- or maybe you high school physics class didn't get to the Special Theory of Relativity. . .and if you're tempted to say I'm being nitpicky about definitions, well. . . precise definitions are the foundation of science -- and communication too for that matter, neither of which you seem to have any facility with.


Let alone makes plants work giving us our oxegen for their CO2

I always thought that that was a process by which plants used the kinetic energy of light to cause a chemical reaction that combined water, and the substances in the soil to produce other substances which allowed the plant to grow and mature. I'm not seeing how this proves your particulate fluid matter definition of light. . . If it were only the particles of light adding to the mass of the plant, we'd all be growing during a sunbathing session, and I would think that Mercury, receiving the highest concentration of light in our solar system, would at least be catching up in size to the other planets. . .after all these millions of years.

that hasn't gone WAY out of wack.... given more of us than ever and still SLAUTERING trees.

God say go forth and be fruitfull NOT GO FORTH AND RAPE!!!!

And you think we mean ANYTHING.... except fort the concrete we leave behind we will be a very MINOR PARASITIC hiccup of planet earth at the rate we are going..... planet is going no where for another 5 million years.... we are going to make another century even?

Uh. . . What?

OK maybe that is bending stuff a little to much... but comes back to a serious photographer that not undersatanding LIGHT IS particulate fluxing dynamic matter that just IS

I think I already covered this. . . but maybe it just emphasizes that you might want to bone up on your understanding of light, wave properties and how things work.

.... in the begining where we all treuely come from... fused attoms and environment.... Maybe GOD did that.... maybe just cosmic accident..... haven't heard of any cosmic accident causing a WAR yet... VARIOUS religions better than yours.... Religion....TO NO END.... but our own

Then again manybe like the dinosaurs that FAR out lived us..... just a big asteroid will do us in to and thew EAR$TH will finnaly say THANK GOD that parasite is gone.


Sorry guys, I just couldn't let this ridiculous statement pass. . .though it well might be a question of trying to reason with the unreasonable. . .

I'll let this go at this post, I can't make the point any more clearly -- and as some have suggested, perhaps I'll stick to trying to help solve problems that crop up, and no matter how OT it might be, posting pics, and "patting others on the back" for the pics that they choose to share with us in this "discussion" forum. . .

Scott



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Old Jun 22, 2007, 1:40 AM   #24
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i tried four lenses on my K10D yesterday
all were 50mm or set to the 50mm part of the zoom
what i found out was :-

the Weston master II lightmeter
ISO 200, 1/1250, f:5.6

the Pentax 35-70
ISO 200, 1/1250, f:5.6

the Pentax 50mm f1.7
ISO 200, 1/1250, f:5.6

the Pentax 50mm f2
ISO 200, 1/1250, f:5.6

the Sigma 18-50
ISO 200, 1/1000, f:5.6

i dont know why the Sigma was different by a half(?) a stop
the sky was clear

if f stops are not consistant from lens to lens and camera to camera it kind of defeats the purpose

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Old Jun 22, 2007, 1:59 AM   #25
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snostorm wrote:
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Heyward,

I'm not even going beyond the first sentence.....

I'm not surprised -- a reasoned point by point discussion is about the last thing I expected
Why when no need to..... geez only 36 MILLION Goggle hits on the particle nature of light. (Many I'm sure not relevant but plenty that are in just the first 20 hits

http://www.google.com/search?source=...=Google+Search
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Old Jun 22, 2007, 3:07 AM   #26
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Heyward,

WOW! That's almost as many as voted for the the winner of American Idol!

Thank you for your well thought out and detailed response -- I couldn't have expected more. . .


Scott

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Old Jun 22, 2007, 3:53 AM   #27
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Gumnut wrote:
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i dont know why the Sigma was different by a half(?) a stop
the sky was clear
Lens makers have been known to fudge a little about maximum aperture.

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if f stops are not consistant from lens to lens and camera to camera it kind of defeats the purpose
Bingo
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