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Old Aug 21, 2007, 11:20 AM   #1
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Hi folks, I'v just joined your forum as I notice it seems a great place to get some useful tips.

I'v gone through a few film/camera formats, frommy dadsfolding 120 2nd world war 'notebook' to my old ,trusty nikon F and nikormatt transparency kit, and now a handy digital Olympus C7000 compact.Now, my daughter is the keen snapper, moving on from herYashica II SLR andit's superb 1.4 contax lens to a Minolta A2 digital bridge camera. But, shewas not happy with electronic viewfinder and sloooow shutter response.

She is about to buy a K10d and has been recommended by the knowledgeable sales guys inthe camera shopto get the Sigma 17-70 zoom lens.So we went down town to test it against the standard 18-55 lens. We had to compromise,they only hadthe Samsung clone in stock, (with Schnider lens ) and the Sigma was only in stock with a Nikon mount ! Never mind, we needed to check out the lenses so I shot my tests, in jpeg (outdoors, looking up a busy street)with these bodies at Max aperture, then 2 intermediate ones to end a f16, from max wide through to max telephoto. We copied onto a CD and shot off home to see the results. Well, when we zoomed in on the 32 shots on the computer we were surprised, Very, very littledifference,certainly not enough to justify £250/$500 more for the Sigma!

And as a referece I shot the same sequence on my pocket C7000 and guess what... it beat both the SLR combos hands down, I could even see the lightning conductor on the distant church tower, (a hazy green line on the SLRs). So what is going on ??? Is this the jpeg detuning I read about on the K10d, (but it was the also bad on the Nikon). Daughter is not impressed and wants my long obsolete C7000 ! any comments gratefully received, sorry, rubbish on PCs ,so not sure how to post these pics! thanks


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Old Aug 21, 2007, 12:48 PM   #2
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First of all, Welcome to the forum - probably the best camera forum on the net.



If the Sigma lens is the f2.8 17-70mm, then the reason for the premium price is the wider max aperture at f2.8 instead of f3.5 and the slightly wider angle at 17mm not 18mm. As to whether this is worth anything, depends on what sort of shooting you do, although as a first dSLR, I would stay with the kit lens. It is an excelelnt performer and many would agree, it is better than all the other kit lens out there!



I would also humbly suggest that being used to a bridge camera, then save a lot of cash and go for the K100D. It has some AUTO modes to get used to it, shoot fantastic pics and is very forgiving with regard to exposure. The K10D is very unforgiving in terms of focus and exposure. Both need to be spot on, and it is a steep learning curve. I know, as I have been shooting for over 25 years, and the K10D forced me to re-learn a lot of Film technique.



If your daughter is serious about the K10D level, then a good recommendation would be to look at the Samsung GX10. Practicly the same camera, but the twin lens kit is about the same price as the K10D body only. This gives the best 2 kit lenses out there, the Pentax 18-55mm and 50-200mm. Once these have been used for 3 months or so then you will know what lens you need next.



The last point is the difference between the compact and the dSLR. The compact has a smaller sensor and immense DoF. It also sharpens and saturates in camera to a pre-determined level, suitable for everyday snapshots. The dSLR, unless the menus are changed, will not sharpen or saturate. This is something for you to do on the computer.



Of course, it is possible to set the dSLR to perform the same as a compact, by increasing the sharpness, the contrast and the saturation, and setting the camera onto AUTO or PROGRAM. It just depends what your daughter is looking for in a camera.



Apologies for the lenghty answer, but there are several points raised, and the K10D is a big chunk of money to throw away if you pick the wrong camera.





Dal
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 1:46 PM   #3
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welcome to the board SS.

wow darren. VERY good response.. bravo, i don't think anyone could do better.
he's right, SS, the 10d is a lot of digital camera to start with. i shoot a DS and if i could ever stop buying lenses i'd upgrade..

roy
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 2:54 PM   #4
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Darren explained it perfectly.
The K10D will handle very differently than a compact camera, it has a learning curve.

The K100D has a learning curve too, but a less steep one...I'd advise that one too, and you can save the extra cash for a good lens.

Tom
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 3:45 PM   #5
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Cheers Guys.



Head hurts now though....LOL



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Old Aug 21, 2007, 4:34 PM   #6
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Thanks for prompt reply, she did try the K100d but with the long 80-200 and especially the sigma 80-300 but felt the camera body was overwhelmed, (tiny compared to her Yashica SLR) like holding a lens with something stuck on the back.

I agree the kit lens and the sigma 17-70 get great reviews, our rough and ready test was simply to see for ourselves what they were like, what to expect. Thinking with all that 'firepower' it must be better thanmy old (but quality) compact. If I understand it correctly the lenses are capable of good resolution but it is deliberately held back by some setting in the camera software, then a fuzzy logic enhancement is added within processing? This seems to force the photographer to spend some time tweaking each image to sharpen it up. Unless one is quite competent with these complicated programmes I imagine there is a degree of frustration and disappointment with the apparently poor image, however, I digress.

You make a sensible appraisal, the K100d would be easier to learn and less demanding of decision making's, you only have so long before the frog hops out of shot! She is going on a once in a lifetime safari holiday in November and needs to get the camera and be competent to use it by then.But, she is in a photographic club (as I was) and is prepared, within reason to learn (however most of the members are Nikcanonites!) so she may have to study on this forum.

As the K10/samsung canrecord jpeg and raw at the same time I imagine she could tweak the jpeg and still mess about with the raw file when she has enough time.



Cost is not the decider, she has a good job and wants to get a camera that she won't have to upgrade from in a year or two, I think she favours the K10d but I will get her to read the comments you give as she has not set it in stone yet.

The Samsung is virtually the same, I understand it has less pronounced 'buttons' but the std. 18-55 lens is a 'schnider '(an old german/kodak lens maker?) perhaps it is just a name adopted by samsung and a pentax under the paint?

I think after reading your comments we will probably make another trip to Jessops/jacobs and see if they will let us tweak the jpeg setting or try raw (the c7000 does raw, but i have never used it)

Thanks again for the tips, SS




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Old Aug 21, 2007, 4:52 PM   #7
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raw images ALWAYS look flat and dead . no processing has been done to them. i only shoot in raw when it's for me. you HAVE to digitally develope your raw images.. you end up with so much more controll of the image when shooting in raw but if you don't like the computer time,, forget it.. there are those here that do and those that dont. i can say that at times it's been talked to death.. actually it's been awhile, it'll probably raise it's head soon again.

Schnider lenses??? one of the oldest and most respected maker in the world.

roy
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 5:25 PM   #8
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Hi SS - me again.



I have the K10D set to record RAW+ jpg as a permanent setting now, as I use 4GB SDHC so spce is not an issue. However, if I do start to run low (if I only have one card with me, then I will shoot Jpg only). Horses for courses - Basically, do you process you own film/negative or give to the superstore to put onto a machine....



I understand what you mean about not getting a simple camera then upgrading again, I think I upgraded twice in about 18 months! Kodak Z740 to Pentax DL2 to Pentax K10D.



Personally, despite the extra cost, I got the Pentax, as I like my Camera to feel like a camera, and the Samsung is too much like everything else these days - smooth and made for the young.



My last bit of advice would be (and I think I will be supported by UK readers!) is try out the gear in Jessops, but don't, DON'T every buy there!!!! I got my DL2 there and although I got what I thought was a good deal (got discount etc) I could have bought it online even cheaper, with more extras...



At present the best places seem to be Warehouse Express, Camera World and Photo Optix (where I got mine).



Please ask any more questions as you and your daughter move towards a great purchase.





Dal
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 6:01 PM   #9
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Thanks for the advice, the daughter and her husband have busy live's so I am doing the donkey work research. You confirm what she felt about the Samsung's 'feel', lots of people say choosing a camera is not just about test reviews, you need to try them and be comfortable. Sadly Jessops, who are probably the most competent of the high street photo shops are struggling/potentially going bust cos we all go to the discount/online dealers. She genuinely feels a loyalty to them for the help she has had in the past and if they can price match will likely go with them. But for the extra lens, following advice ( I have just picked up advicefrom an adjacent topic for a great price from a Hong Kong lens shop)we will look around, seen some tempting lenses on ebay (Vivitar series 1s), and as a now retired engineer I note Dawg's wonder full tweaks on old Yashica lenses.

Note the comments about raw/jpeg. to a past slide/trany user post proccesing was not my scene, the picture was right in the viewfinder or you did not take it!

Got a bit of a hospital visit in next couple of days and if all goes well I will get back to you guys valued comments later in week, thanks, SS
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 6:28 PM   #10
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silversurfer wrote:
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Note the comments about raw/jpeg. to a past slide/trany user post proccesing was not my scene, the picture was right in the viewfinder or you did not take it!
you're dead wrong and need to wake up to the digital world.. make that statement to ansel adams or even w. eugene smith and either would tell you , get you head on right. i can see you've never had an in house darkroom.

absolutely no offense meant here SS. i call them as i see them. the thing is that i've seen too many make that statement..

cheers,
roy
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