Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital SLR and Interchangeable Lens Cameras > Pentax Lenses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Nov 1, 2008, 4:48 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
thkn777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,831
Default

Hey OW,
I didn't plan on attacking you, I just wanted to ease your pain by exaggerating the whole thing (although I really would like to have such a lens) and make you stop and smile about it.

Quote:
If Pentax had got it right the first time, this topic "17-70: Sigma or Pentax" would never havebeen started !!! -and Kesz, who started the topic,would have bought his K20D long ago, without even asking for opinions!
What is right and what is wrong? Some people want good prime lenses, some want mega-zooms... and all the while a company has to decide who will pay the most for a given or new product. Again - no offense meant: who are you to say 17-70 is THE normal range? Why not 15-65? 20-90? See what I mean?

Please don't take my posting personal, I really want to add to that conversation on a technical base.
Quote:
The request for at good quality, reasonably fastPENTAX zoom in the "normal range" that surpasses the kit lens by a broad margin isNOT unreasonable !
I never said that. /shrug I started into the SLR technique with a Minolta Dynax 500si, used only the kit lens, which is 35-70/3.5-4.5 - which would translate to a 23-47/3.5-4.5 lens on my DL2. The kit lens already has a better zoom range, see? I don't like the kit lens because it is sloooow (aperture-wise and AF) and I lost many good pics due to that. But that's me - I haven't got a good flash and do alot of available light stuff. WITH a good flash things might look different...

Quote:
In fact it HAS been done by others ! And IMO Pentax/Hoya has every basis, facilities, know how,and qualifications to do so.
Agreed. I also think they keep us short. They are very capable of doing a good job, and I don't understand why. It's not the technical qualification, that's for sure.
Quote:
Thenmy wish for such a lens, should not give reason for ridicule, subtle and funny as it might be.
Well, that went the wrong way, I didn't want and don't want to make fun of you (as a person), I just want to help to see things from a different angle, even add a satirical/comedy touch, taking out some of the aggresion/frustration in that discussion by (hopefully) producing some chuckles and smiles. Again: please accept my apologies if you felt it was directed at you - which it wasn't - I'll try harder next time to choose the right words.

Quote:
Your comment on using the Vivitar instead of the Pentax though isuseful and make me love my Viv even more -thus keeping the LBA at bay for a while. And I sure take Your point on going out to take pictures (instead of whining).
I *knew* there was some LBA involved . Taking pictures is what photography is about, at some point even the lens quality becomes less important. I see that, when I show my photos to friends, family, relatives and so on - I get nice comments about quality and stuff. On the other hand for me very often there is that nagging feeling that I could have done better. Try to find the point, where the image you took was/is good enough. Very hard... but very rewarding for your inner peace.
Quote:
More than being (slightly)offendedby your post, I take heed, that this forum is amore practical and matter-of-factly one, rather than being speculative and comtemplative platform. I shall then strive to keep in line and within bounds, should I ever again take part in the discussion. But I'll for sure follow the exchange of experience, knowledge, ideas, AND pictures from the sideline, as I find it most rewarding.
Oh no - we all daydream here... of better camera bodies, full frame sensors, high speed continuous sport shooting with predictive autofocus, a good lens collection and so on. Don't give up on that! We just know (to some extend) how the others feel and sometimes try to support each other when we feel it hit someone very hard, take it as a sign of friendship/fellowship.

As for the bounds... some of us try to "limit" themselfes to just one lens when shooting and try to bypass their personal bounds by trying other approaches to photography. It's also a mind-thingy, that keeps you (me, us) prison at times: "I can't take those pictures with that selection of camera and lenses - no way!". Take it as a challenge and try to fight that pessimism. You might not get the images you had in mind first place, but maybe others, which are also very good/interesting etc.

And then come and share these experiences with us, you are very welcome to do so, in fact this is a big part of that forum.

I really hopewe've got all misunderstandings out of way with that rather long post.

Best regards,
Th.


thkn777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1, 2008, 1:12 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
kezs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 139
Default

OW wrote:
Quote:
If Pentax had got it right the first time, this topic "17-70: Sigma or Pentax" would never have┬*been started !!! -and Kesz, who started the topic,┬*would have bought his K20D long ago, without even asking for opinions┬*!
true. the k20d is a nearly perfect body. high iso performance, weather sealing, 14mp, advanced features, and now a price drop and a 3 year warranty. this is a body I could see myself using 20 years from now - no kidding! give me an excellent lens to go with it (my main reason for an upgrade anyway), and I wouldn't think about it for a second. but they're just not out there. I'm not as demanding as thkn777 there; something like a star-worthy, relatively fast 16-80 for 600-800 bucks, like olympus, sony and nikon do, and you've got a deal. I'd even give up the 80mm for a 50mm 2.8, but the samples I've seen from the da*16-50 look a lot like something from a cheap kit lens (btw, could someone please take a look at this post of mine? thanks - http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...935350#p935350 ). so I'm actually leaning towards the olympus system - I'd get the e520, but one is likely to upgrade a body in a few years anyway - I'd keep the top-quality zuiko 12-60.
kezs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1, 2008, 2:49 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
thkn777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,831
Default

@kezs
are you talking about about that Nikon lens: http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikko...3556vr?start=1?

In comparison to the Pentax kit lens (http://www.photozone.de/pentax/135-p...report?start=1) it shows a more uniform performance, that's true.

Regarding prime lenses, especially in the more common focal ranges, I don't think that Pentax really is that bad, but shows comparable results to other lens makers.

Have a look around that website (if you didn't already), maybe it helps in your decision. For me the whole bundle you can get is important, as well as the price. Personal preferences come into play, too.

Good luck with your decision!

Regards,
Th.
thkn777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1, 2008, 4:17 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
kezs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 139
Default

Th.,

about the nikon... ja wohl, that's the one. it's not great, but it's good enough; an offering like that on the pentax line would make me close a deal.

about the primes... I might look into one or two eventually, but a general-purpose lens has probably around 70% of the weight of my choice lens-wise. I did - and do - check that site out. I like technical reviews like the ones they give there. it has a fairly good review on the sigma 17-70... but reports on the sigma QC still hold me back from going for one.

gruss,

k.
kezs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1, 2008, 6:13 PM   #35
OW
Member
 
OW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 36
Default

thkn777 wrote:
Quote:
What is right and what is wrong? Some people want good prime lenses, some want mega-zooms... and all the while a company has to decide who will pay the most for a given or new product. Again - no offense meant: who are you to say 17-70 is THE normal range? Why not 15-65? 20-90? See what I mean?

Hi Th.

Thank You for thekindness and effort Yov've put into Your lastresponse post. I'll carry on wiser from the first post and happier because of the last.

Assuming taht the Camera is of sound mechanical quality, I have the impertinence to claim that it purposejust is to hold film and lens, to keep time and, if wanted, to stop the lens down, and supply a resonableveiwfinder enabling focusto compose the picture. With the Digital SLR the sensor has to be taken into consideration, as we no longer can pick an choose between films. Everything else is a bonus, allthough I must admit a verywonderful and versatile bonus asD-SLRs goes and the K20D in peticular!

If this is true, then the only reasonable approch todecide what to buy, MUST start with finding the right lens according tohowone veiws the world andwhat one wants to capture.

My POV is about 27 degrees => 85mm full frame,-approx. 60mmnowadays. Thewish for azoom is just plain lazynessand fear of lost opportunities.

As life mostlyPEOPLE, PETS, andPLACESthe 18-80mm will covers most of life, outdoors as well as indoors. So if not "normal" zoom, them most useable zoom to most people = which in turn brings us back to my obsession with a good quality lens in that range -Sorry !

If You have special interest, such as sports, wild beasts, birds, insects etc, then of course this calls for other SPECIAL lenses, that YOU will consider normal.

As the old proverb goes: Give a man a hammer, and he'll see nails everywhere !

I shall keep on dreaming of the HAMMER LENS !

@ Kezs - meister:

Might not the beneign madness in parts of the Pentax family persuade You to buy a K20D ???

And NOW the time for less lamentation and more picture taking has come !!!

Best wishes

Ole


OW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 1, 2008, 9:11 PM   #36
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 26
Default

OW wrote:
Quote:
The request for at good quality, reasonably fastPENTAX zoom in the "normal range" that surpasses the kit lens by a broad margin isNOT unreasonable !
-In fact it HAS been done by others !
Hate to tell you, but both Canon/Nikon users of their respective 18-70 lenses are happier w/ the Sigma 17-70 AFAIK (go look on DPR's forums).

If you ask someone what the "normal range" is, even in the film world, most likely, it'll be 28-75. It'll cover 75% of your shots in most cases. The equivalent in the APS-C world is 18-55....

What you want is an extended range...I'm not knocking you because I prefer this as well since I have a Sigma 17-70. A "normal range" in an SLR is generally "a zoom lens w/ a fixed aperture of 2.8" though...

kenyee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 2, 2008, 8:20 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
kezs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 139
Default

OW wrote:
Quote:
Assuming taht the Camera is of sound mechanical quality, I have the impertinence to claim that it purpose┬*just is to hold film and lens, to keep time and, if wanted, to stop the lens down, and supply a resonable┬*veiwfinder enabling focus┬*to compose the picture.┬* With the Digital SLR┬* the sensor has to be taken into consideration, as we no longer can pick an choose between films. ┬*Everything else is a bonus, allthough I must admit a very┬*wonderful and versatile bonus as┬*D-SLRs goes and the K20D in peticular!
(...)
@ Kezs - meister:

Might not the beneign madness in parts of the Pentax family persuade You to buy a K20D ???
see, ever since I spent a few days considering selling my nikon n65 to get a n80, and then I realized the upgrade was of little or no value to my pictures, I think exactly the same thing about the importance of a body. the sensor does play a major role on IQ, and that gives the k20d an edge over, imho, any of the competition. but the lens is still the main element for me. and, to be honest, the benign madness of the four thirds system is closer to persuading me than the pentaxians... since it looks like the zuiko 12-60 is a sledge hammer compared to the pentax 16-50.
kezs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 13, 2008, 9:28 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
kezs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 139
Default

well, my good pentax buddies, I have reached a verdict. and, as promised, here it is.

I'm going 4/3s way. I almost did it about 2.5 years ago when I went from film to digital, but then the sensor limitations + my current nikon gear made me go for the d50. their sensor now is largely improved, with its only real "flaw" being dynamic range - which is quite relative, since my d50 has narrower DR than the e520.

the reason is simple. zuiko 12-60. that's pretty close to the perfect lens, certainly the closest thing out there (yeah yeah, for me anyway). range, speed, and most of all, IQ. the pentax k20d is an excellent body which I would be glad to own and use. the e520 is good enough, I'd say. but the way things are advancing, I'm sure I'll replace my e520 in 3 or 4 years of something that'll be a real upgrade; something close to what the k20d is today. bodies and sensors are sure to improve a great deal in a few years, but I have no guarantee that pentax will release a "sledge hammer" lens like the 12-60, which will probably still be as useful 20 years down the road as it is now. the 16-50 is decent enough, but not an ideal range and certainly not ideal IQ (I've seen quite a few samples from good copies). and, FWIW, IQ at 16mm f/2.8 does matter - specially shooting architecture.

but I guess I'll pretend to be a pentax owner just to keep chatting with you pentaxians. I like how open minded you tend to be, unlike a great deal of canikonians and even sonyans (not all of them, of course) who tend to make the point that "if everybody else is using it, then it MUST be better" much too often.

as to the 4/3s, I just always admired the concept of making something new instead of adapting old technology, and how that translates into IQ. I'm an architect and I don't like neoclassic . it has its downsides, like anything in the world (except maybe gisele b├╝ndchen), but all the reading and research I've done have convinced me that, in my case, oly is the way to go. plus, I get to steal my bro's 35mm macro.
kezs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 14, 2008, 4:51 AM   #39
OW
Member
 
OW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 36
Default

kezs wrote:
Quote:
the reason is simple. zuiko 12-60. that's pretty close to the perfect lens, certainly the closest thing out there (yeah yeah, for me anyway). range, speed, and most of all, IQ. the pentax k20d is an excellent body which I would be glad to own and use. the e520 is good enough, I'd say. but the way things are advancing, I'm sure I'll replace my e520 in 3 or 4 years of something that'll be a real upgrade; something close to what the k20d is today. bodies and sensors are sure to improve a great deal in a few years, but I have no guarantee that pentax will release a "sledge hammer" lens like the 12-60, which will probably still be as useful 20 years down the road as it is now. the 16-50 is decent enough, but not an ideal range and certainly not ideal IQ

Hi kezs

Your insight and sound judgement WOULD lead You to go OLY. The choice of the right LENS must be the deciding factor.

One just have to see what quantum leap cameras have taken since the "Asahi Pentax Spotmatic" revolutionized the SLR/TTL advanced amateurworld in the early 1960'ties. Now compare this to the slow evolution in good lenses in the same period.

Having ( Again !) produced the best everCamera the K10D/K20D'sfor the advanced AMATEURand satisfying the less advanced p&s spouse as wellin the process,Pentax DIDshot themselves in the left foot when they replaced the16-45mm, with a DA* 16-50mm, instead ofa DA* 16-80mm. This would probablyhave won them the following ofjust about ALL advanced amateurs!

Introducing the inadequate 17-70mm, presumeably targetted at theWOULD BE advanced amateur,was the shot to the right foot ! Compared to the kit 18-55mm lens it is simply TOO MARGINALan upgrade, as well as to expensive to justify such small improvement.

The conclusionmust be: GO WITH GLASS !!! -And Your havea bright future !

Actually my decision to buy the K20D was based on my owning several "good old glasses" bought in the 70'ties and the 80'ties, -And of course the fact that the K20D probably is the "best ever advanced amateur camera" !

I should be happy then, and I AM !!! But it makes me sad to see that the PENTAX, which for the last 5 decades has been agroundbreaking, innovative, glorious producer of benchmark Cameras and Lenses,seems to be missing the mark today. Thus stealing frommy (LBA) "dreampotential", and loosing good dedicated followers as well.

Dear kezs

I wish You a long and happy life with OLYMPUS, and should You choose to "pretend tobe a Pentax-owner"to stay in this forum, I for one would appreciate that very much.

Ole




OW is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 5:12 AM.