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Old Jan 6, 2008, 4:51 AM   #31
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the situation merely caused me to reflect on one of the reasons i like living here
i hope i never am in that situation
if it ever happens
then i will find out what i willl do
my stuff is insured
but i am more likely to forget it and leave it behind somewhare by mistake

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Old Jan 7, 2008, 3:24 PM   #32
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What can I say.. living in a very peaceful corner of the world. I would give up my gear and wallet without any discussion. There is so little crime here that includes weapons that even the police do not carry sidearms. Of course they have access to guns in situations where they need them but... I will rather fight for a society without guns than let everybody carry a weapon.

BigDawg getting rid of your weapons like you did


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Old Jan 7, 2008, 3:30 PM   #33
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I carry all my stuff in a bag marked "SEAGULL"! :lol:
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Old Jan 8, 2008, 11:34 AM   #34
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This is a very interesting thread. Personally my answer is "it depends". Any time you resist a mugging, you have the potential to escalate the situation. The question becomes: are you prepared to deal with those consequences? You have a split second to make the decision. If you are uarmed, are you truly capable of dealing with an escalated situation?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"I spent years training as a martial artist and I can tell you without doubt you should NEVER estimate a potential apponent based solely on size or appearance. A person with fighting experience can easily defeat a non experienced opponent that is much bigger / stronger (to a degree). Notice I don't say trained fighter. I've met a lot of black belt martial artists that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag in a real fight - because they trained for sport and can't function outside the rules.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"So, assuming you're getting held up - is your money/ego worth getting seriously hurt even in an unarmed fight? Or do you have the training/background to deal with an escalated situation?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Now, throw in weapons and it's a whole different ball game. First of all I would encourage ANYONE getting a concealed weapon to understand the law in your state. You may be surprised to find that you don't in fact have the right to shoot someone trying to rob you (in some states you do, in others you dont). In Ohio for instance you are only allowed the use of deadly force if you have no option to retreat. So, be sure to understand how the law works where you live. Or you could easily be the one in jail.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"And as others mentioned - armed conflict is VERY different in real life than at a shooting range. It's difficult to impossible for most civilians to train for an actual gun fight. Are you sure that you will not unintentionally hurt an innocent bystander? Do you understand the weapon and bullets you're using? Will they go through your target and hit something else? Will they, in fact, stop your opponent?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"And of course there is the inconvenience factor - most people that apply for concealed carry don't end up carrying the weapon on their person after a short period - it's uncomfortable to carry, there are numerous places you still can't bring it with you. With most people, the "cool factor" wears off after a short while and it's more a pain than it's worth.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"My advice? Insure your gear. That's what insurance is for. Life/death decisions should never be made based upon property/monetary interests. It really should be only a matter of safety of you and your companions/family. And if you decide you want to take that risk you best have training to fall back on. Otherwise panic will take over and you or a loved one may end up dead because your ego was more important to you than your or your companion/ families safety.
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Old Jan 8, 2008, 1:32 PM   #35
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One thing that should be pointed out to non-US readers is the serious financial/legal repercussions that using a firearm for self-defense causes here in the US. You have to be prepared to pay $100K (yes, *one hundred thousand*) dollars in legal fees. Here's what will happen to you:
a) you'll get criminal charges brought against you by the aggressive District Attorney who wants to make a name for himself so he can teach the public that vigilante justice is not tolerated in *his* state
b) you'll spend a lot of money on legal fees and time defending yourself (and possibly lose your job because you don't have time for it)
c) your employer will find out you own a gun (newspapers and media love "outing" gunowners) and a lot of them nowadays do not want their employees carrying concealed, so you also might lose your job from this
d) after you survive the D.A., you'll be brought into *civil* court by the burglar's relatives who come out of the woodwork (remember OJ Simpson?)
e) you'll waste more legal fees and time defending yourself (do you still have a job and mortgage at this point? heh...maybe)
f) after you're all done at this point (maybe 2-3 yrs down the road), if you're lucky, you'll still have your family and house, but at least you'll be alive instead of killed by a robber who has nothing to lose

So, as you can see, legal use of a gun is a last resort thing, despite what you see in our messed up Hollywood movies which are written by idiots on drugs who don't understand basic physics ;-).
It's not the wild west where you magically shoot a bad guy and just go to work the next day as if nothing happened. There are countries that have lots of gun ownership but with *responsible* citizens (Switzerland, as mentioned)...it's all in how people are raised.

As for protecting your camera gear, you have to decide the places you're willing to shoot. If you go to a "grunge" area to get cool shots, be sure to go w/ a group. And don't wear stuff that telegraphs "I have a bag of expensive camera gear". Be aware of your surroundings, etc. And don't always assume that if you give a robber all they want, they won't beat you up, rape you, kill you, etc...after all, they have nothing to lose except their life; getting a free bed and food is better than living on the cold streets...

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Old Jan 8, 2008, 2:09 PM   #36
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Anyone who is considering carrying a handgun for self defense shoud read the small book In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob..

This book explains in detail what to expect in an armed gunfight, as well as the possible & probable consequences of what society in the form of the District or States Attourney will do to you..

I haven't fired a handgun in years..The last time that I did was 16 years ago at the indoor firing range with a co-worker..We shot his slightly accurized Colt 1911A1 with fixed sights..At the time I hadn't fired a handgun in 10 years..I out shot my friend so badly that he would hardly talk to me for days..The thing that angered him the most was that I hadn't shot in years, whereas he was shooting several times a week..

My friend was like a lot of people..He shot, but not well..Regardless, he constantly talked about protecting himself & his family with that 1911A1 pistol..The fact that he was a mediocre shot seemed to make little or no difference to him..His greatest wish was to have a concealed carry permit..I'm glad he was never able to get one..

Shooting a handgun well on the range is one of the most difficult feats of human hand-eye coordination to accomplish..To be able to consistantly put all of the bullets into the kill zone of a paper silhouette target at 5 meters is not an easy task..It requires a tremendous amount of practice in order to be able to do so..

According to published statistics, most gunfights are conducted at approximately 7-8 feet..Even so, those same statistics also show that the number of fired bullets that strike & kill are far out numbered by the ones that wound, or miss the target altogether..

Stress & general across the board poor marksmanship, both criminal & law enforcement, are the reasons for this..With stress playing a very signifigant part..

IMO, one needs to shoot at least twice a week, a hundred rounds a session for a year in order to get comfortable with a large caliber handgun..Without a tremendous amout of shooting in order to obtain proficiency with a handgun, there is no way that a person has any business arming themselves & walking about in public..To do so is to only invite disaster..

The other thing to condider is that proficiency with a handgun on targets doesn't mean diddly squat in a firefight..Mr. Ayoob makes this point time & again in his book..His theory is that anyone arming themselves to walk about in public has an absolute obligation to not only to be able to shoot accurately under range conditions; but to seek out, & to pay to be trained under the most realistic conditiions possible..

There are schools around the countrty that will teach one to shoot under simulated street gunfight conditions..I know several people that have attended such schools..Before attending they were cocky, talked a lot of trash, & to a man wanted a concealed carry permit....After returning they were much humbler, and realized that they were really going to have to dedicate their time & resources to shooting in order to obtain a concealed carry permit..None chose to do so..

I am a firm believer in the Second Ammendment and our right to keep & bear arms..With that right , I believe, comes an equal, if not, greater responsibility to bear & use those same arms responsibly, accurately, & safely..

I have a desire to set about & really photograph the city that I was born in, & that I've spent the greater part of my life living in..THere are many neighborhoods where it would not be particularly safe to attempt street photography, even in broad daylight..Baltimore City virtually never hands out concealed carry permits to people like me..Without serious political pull the chances of my getting a permit are non-existant..

So I'm left with the decision to abandon my desires; or to go armed & hope for the best..The consequences of a Caucasan person (me) shooting someone in a predominantly black & hispanic city don't bear thinking about..Without overwhelming evidence to prove that you had no other choice, you would be guaranteed a long, costly criminal trial..Soon to be followed by an even more costly civil trial..Both of which, according to recent trends, you would have about a 75% chance of loosing..

So, I'll be photographing Baltimore where it's safe to do so and I'll avoid those neighbiorhoods where even the cops fear to go..

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