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-   -   K10D and it's tilting horizons. (https://forums.steves-digicams.com/pentax-samsung-dslr-k-mount-mirrorless-73/k10d-its-tilting-horizons-126510/)

thekman620 Jul 28, 2007 8:32 AM

Well I sent my K10D into Pentax in Canada last week, as like many others, my horizons were askew - mine to the right by about .9 degrees. I wanted to send in my FA*200 f/2.8 for calibration, so decided to send in the K10D along with the lens, and kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak.

I talked to the repair centre yesterday, and the fellow I've been dealing with said the k10 is fine, and nothing wrong with it. So I asked him if it's possible that maybe Pentax has a design flaw in the K10D, and he actually said that that may well be. I thought this to be a little strange, but maybe not out of the ordinary (having a design flaw). Being only a Pentax DSLR owner, and never having had any of the other brands, I'm not sure if tolerances of this type of problem are common place or not. It isn't that big a deal, as it's an easy fix in ps, but I thought maybe they could alleviate the problem while still on warranty. Seems they cannot.

Does anyone else know if the other brands have tilted sensors or focus screens as a common problem, or is it just the K10D. My other Pentax bodies never had this problem. Line up the focus screen markers on a tripod, and they were bang on....Don

mtngal Jul 28, 2007 8:50 AM

thekman620 wrote:
Quote:

Does anyone else know if the other brands have tilted sensors or focus screens as a common problem, or is it just the K10D. My other Pentax bodies never had this problem. Line up the focus screen markers on a tripod, and they were bang on....Don
You've hit my biggest problem on the head - remembering to line up the focus screen markers! The one thing I would do when I get the camera back is give it another try and see if it's been changed or not. If it is different, then perhaps your focus screen wasn't quite seated right? Since they are removable, there might be something going on with that.

Hayward Jul 29, 2007 1:00 AM

Two things may be going on here, and shooting lots of sunsets over water see it myself frequently.

1 If you are shooting the horizon not straight on (perdendicular... straight out from where ever you are) it will seem tilted.

2 The other is paying more attention to seeing other things in the frame as level... like clouds, buildings, etc.

But with even the most basic electronic darkroom software capable of custom image (few degree) rotation... I've not found it a major issue.

CyberCoyote Aug 1, 2007 6:45 AM

I shoot with a K100D but noticed this on my last trip, every time I use the guides on the focus screen to line up a horizon line I end up with a tilt (the same exact tilt), I'm hoping it's the screen and not the sensor lined up wrong in the camera!

thePrisoner6 Aug 1, 2007 7:34 AM

... and I thought it was just me. I've never noticed any serious horizon tilt in my pictures until I stated shooting with my K100d. (Then again, I've never taken so many pictures in such a short period of time as I have with my K100d.)

I'll have to do some experimenting when I get home. I suspect its it me, and not my camera, becasue not all of my pictures are tilted. The ones that are, are always titled the same way. I thought I had developed a bad habit - that perhaps I was holding the camera strangely.

Monza76 Aug 1, 2007 8:48 AM

I noticed that Pentax claims that the SR feature also deals with rotational motion, which means that the sensor can rotate slightly during SR operation. Perhaps this is enough to cause the <1 degree rotation in images that were properly framed in the viewfinder. Given the number of responses to this I do not think it is fair to write it of as operator-error.

This is just a theory, anyone know the details?

Ira

NonEntity1 Aug 1, 2007 11:08 AM

I just wish I did a good enough job on horizons to notice a <1 degree difference! When mine are off (which they often are) it is a matter of five, six or more degrees. Oh, and it is certainly me, not the camera. I pay too much attention to the subject and not enough to what is in the background.

Tim

CyberCoyote Aug 1, 2007 1:56 PM

I'll have to check the images I have that're off and see if I was using SR or not. Some of them were on a tripod, but it's possible I forgot to deactivate it..

Monza76 Aug 1, 2007 7:21 PM

NonEntity1 wrote:
Quote:

I just wish I did a good enough job on horizons to notice a <1 degree difference! When mine are off (which they often are) it is a matter of five, six or more degrees. Oh, and it is certainly me, not the camera. I pay too much attention to the subject and not enough to what is in the background.

Tim
I know what you mean, I have renamed the crop tool to the straightener since I use it to fix my wonky horizons. I have no SR to blame it on since I shoot with a DL and DS.

Ira

Monza76 Aug 1, 2007 7:24 PM

thekman620 wrote:
Quote:

Well I sent my K10D into Pentax in Canada last week, as like many others, my horizons were askew - mine to the right by about .9 degrees.
I've got it!!!

Our Canadian horizons are actually tilted because of the curvature of the earth as you head farther north. (anyone who takes this seriously should make an emergency call on a geographer for treatment)

:lol:

Ira



nhmom Aug 1, 2007 8:57 PM

CyberCoyote wrote:
Quote:

I shoot with a K100D but noticed this on my last trip, every time I use the guides on the focus screen to line up a horizon line I end up with a tilt (the same exact tilt), I'm hoping it's the screen and not the sensor lined up wrong in the camera!
Okay. I know it's only been 7 days without my camera, but I can't believe I don't remember seeing a "focus screen" to line my horizon up on. I've only used the corners of my viewfinder if I remember correctly. I'm going to look in my manual now!

Hopefully, I'll be getting my camera back any day. I may call Pentax tomorrow just to know they have it. Even though I have confirmation from UPS they did receive it Friday night.

I do know that I've had a couple of tilted photos, but thought it was the SR doing it's thing. Or, maybe just my unsteady hands.

Patty

Gumnut Aug 1, 2007 11:22 PM

ok

i can say its the sensor on my dital cameras

but what about all my film shots?

crooked film?

Monza76 Aug 2, 2007 6:50 AM

thekman620 wrote:
Quote:

Well I sent my K10D into Pentax in Canada last week, as like many others, my horizons were askew - mine to the right by about .9 degrees.
Theory number 3:

The higher molecular density of Canadian beer!! This often causes tilted horizons (in more ways than one).:lol:



Seriously, I find it difficult to get horizons straight anyway (no beer comments please) but it is curious that so many of your images have the same amount of tilt. My errors are random errors, caused by me and all different, yours do indicate a systematic error which implies an actual problem with the viewing system, or sensor, of your camera. I think the most likely source of this type of error is the fact that the sensor is movable in these cameras and may be locking in a slightly askew position. I don't know if this would actually be a recognizable error to a technician unless they new exactly what to look for (a service memo from Pentax, much as auto makers supply their service centres with service bulletins to fix common problems that do not warrant a recall).

Ira




cmiller Jul 23, 2008 11:08 AM



Hi - I registered purely to take part in this post as I Googled - K10D and tilt. This is because I have exactly the same problem as the original poster and I think it is very serious indeed. I know that I have a well trained eye and have always been very careful about lining up my images and never had any issue before with film cameras or another DSLR I have used. But this is chronic - almost everything is tilted and by a fair amount - I have to correct every photo and that should not be the case. This is such a serious defect I am considering abandoning the whole brand and moving to Canon - which I never wanted to do.

IntrepidWalker Jul 23, 2008 12:41 PM

I'm with Monza76 in a previous reply, I too have great difficulty in getting horizons leve - possible because they are not straight in front but leading away at an angle.

My perception is that when a subject is viewed through the viewfinder, the brain sees it exactly as it is irrespective of where the camera is in relationship to the horizontal. When the image is subsequently viewed, it will assume the angular relationship to the position of the camera to the horizon.

I too use the guide lines in the viewfinder.

I'm used to sorting this out in PS & just accept that it's one of those things.

As to whether the sensor is correctly fitted is another matter. I think that a tripod and subject where the horizon is staight ahead would show this up.



mtngal Jul 23, 2008 2:19 PM

I've read about some K10 cameras that seem to be affectedby this. TheK10 I sold (when I upgraded to the K20)didn't have that problem at all, and neither does my K20, or, for that matter, my K100. If your K10 is still under warranty, send it in to see if they will repair it. Or try another camera. But I wouldn't use this as an excuse to switch brands - change brands because the other one offers you something else that you want that Pentax doesn't have.

Monza76 Jul 23, 2008 5:47 PM

mtngal wrote:
Quote:

I've read about some K10 cameras that seem to be affectedby this. TheK10 I sold (when I upgraded to the K20)didn't have that problem at all, and neither does my K20, or, for that matter, my K100. If your K10 is still under warranty, send it in to see if they will repair it. Or try another camera. But I wouldn't use this as an excuse to switch brands - change brands because the other one offers you something else that you want that Pentax doesn't have.
My K10D seems to have no problems either;)

Operator error seems to be the most common reason for all camera issues regardless of brand. Recently I actually tested the alcohol induced horizon tilt hypothesis, it seems that it is quite accurate. As for the K10D specific problem I think it may well be related to the SR system.

Ira

philneast Jul 23, 2008 8:26 PM

My Bibble RAW converter software has a really good tool for setting the horizons eaxactly straight.

With this in mind, while I try to keep the horizons level, I do not stress about it when taking the photo.

I regard it as just another one of those small adjustment required in processing to get the best out of images.

I use a K10D and and *istDS

Phil

Lyrics51 Jul 23, 2008 11:55 PM

This is an interesting topic. If I am not concentrating in keeping my horizon straight, it won't be. With me its not the camera. But as I am shooting it seems as if I have toovercompensate and tiltthe camera to get it right. But at least my focusing screen and sensor are lined up.

Glenn

mtnman Jul 24, 2008 7:09 AM

I also find my horizons areusually off by one or two degrees when hand-holding my K100D. Funny thing, though, as this was also an issue with my Panasonic FZ30, and my FZ20 before that, and with film cameras as well. It's always between one and two degrees, always in the same direction, no matter how muchI try to think about it while composing a shot.

The beer theory sounds very valid, but this situation occurs for me in all states of "awareness." How odd thatI have a unique talent for purchasing cameras that are all askew by just a little bit!

snostorm Jul 24, 2008 7:35 AM

cmiller wrote:
Quote:



Hi - I registered purely to take part in this post as I Googled - K10D and tilt. This is because I have exactly the same problem as the original poster and I think it is very serious indeed. I know that I have a well trained eye and have always been very careful about lining up my images and never had any issue before with film cameras or another DSLR I have used. But this is chronic - almost everything is tilted and by a fair amount - I have to correct every photo and that should not be the case. This is such a serious defect I am considering abandoning the whole brand and moving to Canon - which I never wanted to do.
Hi cmiller,

Have you checked this on a very steady tripod using a remote or the shutter delay? Tilts (down to the right especially) can be caused by shutter actuation technique. Another possibility is that since SR corrects rotational "shake" in addition to vertical and horizontal, that your sensor might not lock in perfect alignment. Have you also tried this with SR off? Do others have the same problem? Have someone else take some careful shots and if theirs aren't tilted, it may be a fault in your technique.

I'm personally horrible at aligning horizons, rarely getting it right, even when I try. I've learned to rely on PP straightening on the few shots where it makes a difference. Luckily, this isn't critical in 99.99% of my shots.

Sensor alignment seems to have been a problem with some K10s, but AFAIK, Pentax corrected this under warrantee in the cases I've hear of. If, after careful testing, you feel this is an issue with your copy of the camera, send it in with some of your test samples and I'm pretty confident that Pentax will be able to take care of it.

Scott

bilybianca Jul 24, 2008 11:51 AM

Not that it solves your problem, but let me tell you about my recent experience. Today I discovered thata Swedish computer magazine runs a photo contest on "Summer" with a K20D as 1staward and a K200D as second. You can submit as many pictures as you want, and you can vote 1 to 10 on all contributions once you have submitted a contribution yourself. When I happen to see a picture with the horizon aligned I give it a 5for that only. So far I have graded about twohundred contributions, and two or three actually have the horizon levelled! It's not a pro contest, for sure!

Kjell


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