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Old Dec 20, 2006, 8:43 PM   #1
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now that the k10 has had some serious scrutiny what's the general opinion? I've got to say here and now that it doesn't seem to be the camera that I was hoping for. Not bad, but maybe not good enough?

The main concerns that stop me clicking the Buy button are -

a - quite a lot of reportedreliability problems, especially with AF & flash

b - quite high noise levels, more than D80 with similar sonsor.

c - color moire that is visible in text (same DPR image taken with D80 shows none)

so do I give up on pentax sell my stuff and buy a D80, or have I got these things wrong. They are real concerns (to me anyway)
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 9:42 PM   #2
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Mine works great, but if you want a D80 by all means buy one!

Tom
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 10:02 PM   #3
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Angle Finder wrote:
Quote:
now that the k10 has had some serious scrutiny what's the general opinion? I've got to say here and now that it doesn't seem to be the camera that I was hoping for. Not bad, but maybe not good enough?
Do you know a better one for $900?

Quote:
The main concerns that stop me clicking the Buy button are -

a - quite a lot of reportedreliability problems, especially with AF & flash
Maybe I'm the lucky one, but I have none. My K10D AF focuses perfectly. And I don't use internal flash.

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b - quite high noise levels, more than D80 with similar sonsor.
Have you tried to look at details also? D80 noise is really low, however its noise reduction completely wipes out small details and texture. K10D preserves them.

Quote:
c - color moire that is visible in text (same DPR image taken with D80 shows none)
True, K10D tends more to moire than D80.

Quote:
so do I give up on pentax sell my stuff and buy a D80, or have I got these things wrong. They are real concerns (to me anyway)
Tell me when you do that. Maybe I'll get some yours nice Pentax lenses -- I am extremely happy with K10D and I will definateli stick to Pentax for at least a few more years
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 10:21 PM   #4
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I don't know if you've got them wrong or not. I have a differentopinion FWIW.

a. - The reliability problems don't seem particularly high to me, and Pentax seems to be responding to any problems pretty quickly.

b. - noise levels for jpegs as reported in the DPR review were the same for the K10 and the D80 up to 800 where the D80 starts losing detail due to aggressive noise reduction. In RAW, the K10 shows more detail than the D80.

c. - I saw the asterisk indicating visible moire in the DPR review, but did not see any test shots where I could detect moire. Based on the samples I've seen from the camera, this does not concern me.

As I see the IQ issues, Pentax JPEGS are processed to give a more film-like appearance as opposed to the sharpened digital appearance provided by most cameras in it's class. If JPEG's are important to you, this could be a major decision factor. Since this is very much a personal taste issue, I would really look at pictures from both cameras though and decide which appeals to you instead of just going by what a reviewer prefers.

K10 RAW files seem to beslightly better from the K10 (not at all sure this would be noticeable in the real world).

The only item in the DPR review I found to be a concern was the slightly lower dynamic range of the K10. It will be interesting to see if this is corroborated by other reviews.

OTOH, there are a whole list of features offered by the K10 that are not offered by the D80 . The Shake reduction, extra shooting modes, in-camera DNG production, preview mode and high quality viewfinder are all important to me.Weather seals and dust reduction features also seem to be worthwhile.

If I were in the market for a new dSLR, the K10 would be an easy choice.
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 11:11 PM   #5
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I'm perfectly happy with mine at this point in time, and I haven't actually noticed any of the problems you have mentioned. (That isn't to say they aren't there, just that I haven't noticed them).

Paul
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Old Dec 20, 2006, 11:43 PM   #6
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Just my experience:

a. I tested my AF with two AF lenses and checked the focus indicator on one of my manual lenses - no problems. I avoid flash as much as possible, but use it for fill flash sometimes with macro pictures. I haven't had any problems with that, either.

b. Figured someone would mention the greater noise. I'm another one who would rather have the detail there and then can decide how much detail vs. how much noise on each picture (I enjoy the pp process). If I were someone who hated to play with pictures, I might choose to have the camera do the work, realizing that I would be losing detail.

c. I haven't noticed any color moire with my own pictures, so it doesn't bother me that they show in a test. What's important to me is if I like the pictures.

d. I was surprised by the dynamic range restrictions. While it isn't great amount less, more range is better (one of the reasons I didn't like the FZ30 - it had less dynamic range than my 3 year old Sony F717). But again, the bottom line to me is do I like the pictures I get from my camera. I'm happy, so that's what's important.

From only my own experience - the quality of the pictures, especially when resized for forum posting, isn't much different than the K100. I like the auto WB better, and love the functions that the K10 has over the K100, but the picture quality is similar (assuming no major cropping). Since I found the K100 acceptable, I find the K10 more than acceptable because of the extra features etc.

But all this is subjective. If you really want a D80, go for it! Too bad you don't live in the US - I saw the D80 with 2 lenses (some type of kit) on sale at Costco for under $1300 tonight. I wasn't at all tempted.
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 12:43 AM   #7
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mtngal wrote:
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d. I was surprised by the dynamic range restrictions. While it isn't great amount less, more range is better (one of the reasons I didn't like the FZ30 - it had less dynamic range than my 3 year old Sony F717). But again, the bottom line to me is do I like the pictures I get from my camera. I'm happy, so that's what's important.
It is interesting thing with dynamic range of K10D.

It wasn't a problem (none of users ever mentioned it, some even praised good DR) until Phil didn't state in his review that DR of K10D is very narrow.

So, all this fuss about dynamic range is coming only from Phil's measurements. And what if his measurements aren't correct?

Look at this japanese site. They made picture of the same scene with four different cameras: Pentax K10D, Canon 400D, Nikon D80 and Sony a100. Of course I am biased however it seems for me that K10D delivered best dynamic range out of those four cameras.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/re...1/28/5136.html

Look either for five identical pictures in the middle of the page or search for D80.

K10D preserved highlights probably just a little better than D80, however shadow details of K10D are much better than D80. Sony delivers about the same detail level in shadows but Sony's highlights overblown completely. 400D coped with scene also worse than K10D and D80.

What do you think?
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 11:59 AM   #8
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tHE vERDICT :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

it just arrived, still trying to figure it out but ...

indoor flash worked, it flashed
quite high noise levels, it's dark and shooting at 1600 does that sometimes
i got a scanner to scan text, so it's not a problem for me

but if someone like me can take a shot like the one below, i know i'm going to be happy. It's good to compare but ...:idea:... its better to take pictures



Camera Make: PENTAX Corporation
Camera Model: PENTAX K10D
Image Date: 2006:12:21 17:11:45
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 50.0mm (35mm equivalent: 75mm)
Exposure Time: 0.167 s (1/6)
Aperture: f/1.7
ISO equiv: 800
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: program (Auto)

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Old Dec 21, 2006, 12:48 PM   #9
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ennacac wrote:
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Mine works great, but if you want a D80 by all means buy one!

Tom
my sentiments exactly.

roy
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Old Dec 21, 2006, 1:01 PM   #10
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Angle Finder wrote:
Quote:
now that the k10 has had some serious scrutiny what's the general opinion? I've got to say here and now that it doesn't seem to be the camera that I was hoping for. Not bad, but maybe not good enough?

The main concerns that stop me clicking the Buy button are -

a - quite a lot of reportedreliability problems, especially with AF & flash

b - quite high noise levels, more than D80 with similar sonsor.

c - color moire that is visible in text (same DPR image taken with D80 shows none)

so do I give up on pentax sell my stuff and buy a D80, or have I got these things wrong. They are real concerns (to me anyway)
Hi Angle,

My .02 about your concerns:

a -- The AF problems that have been reported are largely coming from a small minority of users. Most who have sent their units back to Pentax for adjustment have had them returned without adjustment, as they are within spec. You might have a conspiracy theory about Pentax not wanting to acknowledge this "defect" -- I choose to rather assume user error. Call me naive, but after working in a number of service-related occupations, I've found that user error (including unrealistic expectations) far exceeds true defects in the overall percentage of percieved problems. I'm not discounting all the complaints -- but I don't consider this a prevalent situation.

The onboard flash situation is different. Some component defects happen in any electronic product. Even the best components will show a percentage of defects. The fact that they worked at first, then failed does not reflect negatively on Pentax QC, unless a significant percentage of the units produced so far are involved (which would indicate a poor choice in components). That does not seem to be the case, so as in any purchase of an electonic item, you take your chances to get a good one. The percentage, I believe, is greatly in your favor.

b -- The noise levels may be higher, but given proper exposure, they are not truly objectionable in any DSLR, IMO. If the high ISO noise levels of the D80 impress you, realize that there are great NR programs available that will reduce the effect to the same extent, and are user controlled as opposed to relying on the programmed parameters within a given camera. If you think that allowing the camera to make the decisions is superior for whatever reason, then the D80 is the better choice -- but the difference is marginal, IMO, especially when it comes to print quality. Noise can always be reduced at the expense of detail, but lost detail is gone forever.

c-- Can't comment on moire -- it's never been a problem in the images that I take.

The bottom line is that if the marginal differences between the two cameras matter (if you have to view 100% crops to see the difference, they are truly nitpicky), then get the one which will satisfy your needs. But why stop at this price point? A 36x24 sensored DSLR will give you REALLY noticeably better IQ, and additionally will give you bragging rights for how really important IQ is to you (voting with your wallet).

I know that I'm not a good enough photographer to be able to extract the very best from any camera in every shot -- never will be -- I'm lazy enough to allow at least some of the automation in the camera do some of the work. For me, the feature set of the K10D (and the Pentax glass that LBA has "forced" me to acquire :-)) was enough to allow me to make the decision to buy it before any reviews came out. I knew that with the control allowed by the digital darkroom, the IQ would be at the very least good enough to get the results I require.

But, of course, YMMV. . .

Good luck in your choice. . .

Scott


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