Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital SLR and Interchangeable Lens Cameras > Pentax / Samsung dSLR, K Mount Mirrorless

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Apr 10, 2007, 12:53 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Hayward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default

Well even a well bounced flash I can see as a flash shot.... still often sort of flat looking.

So not trying to convert anyone... but if possible (via SR or fast lens) I will take available light any day.

And then there is the WB issue.... and why I will alway ID even a well bounced/slave flash.... its indoors but looks like daylight.... to me that is totally UNNATURAL!!!
And in fact probably why the indoor falsh shots I most apprectiate are B&W.

I expect indoor to look a little yellow... be honest to yourself.... to your eye it does too... (though not ORANGE a BAD WB may give) vs BLUE WHITE daylight balance flash usually gives.

SO just what is NATURAL WB indoors..... what really IS or unaturally recreated daylight balance?

The ONLY FLASH bounced/slaved or other wise shots I see as completely natural are B&W not color unless the naurally yelowish availble light... again be honest you really see.... not blue white daylight.
Hayward is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Apr 10, 2007, 2:57 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Corpsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 879
Default

Provacative. You've really thrown down the gauntlet. This ought to be fun. You should post it in the Nikon and Canon forums too.

While I'd like to take a side here, I don't think I can. Personally I do prefer shooting in available light and enjoy SR and fast lenses, but I have to confess that I really don't know much about flash photography and I'm just not that good at it. I agree that flash shots often do look unnatural, but I wonder what most portrait and wedding photographers would say if you suggested doing without.

As for photos looking flat, even with a flash you can still use a wider aperture to blur the background and achieve a nice sense of depth, and would also help obscure color differences of different light sources. And as for the warm look you expect of indoor shots, I suspect there are ways of warming up the photos.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing from people who actually use flashes in their photography. Good luck with your arguments, I truly hope you win and I no longer have to feel bad about not knowing how to use one.


Corpsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 3:35 AM   #3
PDL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 172
Default

From a personal perspective - I hate flash - especially the built in tiny, little wimpy flashes built into DSLR's. The position of the flash is one of the poorest for all flash - just ask your self "Since when is the sun just above my right eye?" (or left eye if you are so inclined)

I do know that the C*non 5D (the supposed "leader" in DLSR's these days) does not have a built in flash. I do not think that Hasselblad comes with a flash and when the 645D comes out I doubt that it will have a flash either. I do not know about the N*kon flagship - don't really care either.

If you need to use a flash (and there are times - I know full well) then go out and get a flash that is useful at distances greater than 20 feet. Get one that you can bounce, color correct - hold away from being in-line with the lens ( uhhh - no more red eye - duh!). Think multiple flashes - just lose the one in line with the lens.

My son is very sensitive to flash - it is painful for him, it is less painful for me (yes - it just plain hurts - due partly to some medication that I have to ingest 3 times a day) feels like getting poked in the eye with a toothpick. It is intrusive, makes many images look unreal (sun above my right eye sort of thing), casts hard unflattering shadows and causes my son, in-laws and other family members to simply get up and leave the room.

Back in the day - I had to use flash - I took images of archaeological "goodies" as part of my job at the time (Staff Archaeologist). Sometimes it is the only way to get the shot, I know it can be necessary - but I still do not like using it. The best portraits I ever took were B&W under tungsten (light bulbs) of my family during gatherings.

bring on the flames - I have my fire proof pants back from the cleaners.

PDL
PDL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 3:52 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Hayward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default

This doesn't even have to have to do with built ins.... and BTW the K10D's is pretty worthless compared to my orig 300D Rebel's.... and why I got an external for my K10D pretty much right off the bat... but only use it when I HAVE too, and actualy mostly for OUTDOOR FILL (where the color temp FITS) not actual indoor exposure, unless no other way.

It is a last resort or only way... at BEST just fill not actually FULL EXPOSURE.

Again some one is welcome to dispute but other than B&W even the BEST bouced/filled/slaved flash exposure in color is NOT natural to its setting. Without tweaking the WB back to being a bit yellow.... thats what interior light IS... not blue white daylight.

An where you can get into real trouble.... slow sync flash in relativevly equal tungsten light... flash much to blue... ambient light much to yellow. (Much the same as Daylight bleeding into an otherwise Tungsten lit scene)

Hayward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 4:00 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
rhermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Antwerp - Belgium
Posts: 3,454
Default

I might not have a right to speak here because I don't have an external flash.

I'm still considering getting one, but ... I have used the internal flash max 20 times since I got the pentax, and most of the time I wasn't happy with the results.

I also dont like it when someone uses a flash, (any)

The reason to get it would be outdoor insect photography and I'm really questioning myself if it's worth it, and that I better not save the money for a great lens.

Ronny




rhermans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 4:09 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Hayward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default

Well then again my Promaster Pentax 7000M Flash was $30 used from B&H (and supposedly wss a much lesser 5700 bought.... oh DARN they Miss ID'd what they had and shipped me that :blah:

Vs THE $200+ COST NEW


And OK all the C & N cronies want to say we have all the best if you have the free $$$$$

But Pentax you get to actually play with find things for a bargain.... pretty much EVERYTHING from the last 40 years..... and YES they HAVE beeen around JUST as long as Canon and Nikon.

And only ONE thing is going to happen....

Pentx (Samsung) and Sony already in cam SR.... Olympus soon to be.....

Well that leaves Canon and Nikon..... will they stay in the low/med end market and do in cam SR?.... no likely to self inportant arrogant for that.

OR they will be TOP END multi THOUSAND$$$$ SLRS with lens IS (again top end$$$$) only.... OK maybe very invested top end amatures as well. But notthing in cam.... totally abandon the low/med DSLR END?..... 1D and P&S will be their ONLY markets for new commers. (Unless minnimal needs P&S or HUGE $$$$ SLR)
Hayward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 5:14 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
snostorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago Suburb, IL, USA
Posts: 2,770
Default

I doubt that you'll find too many people who would argue that flash will always give superior images compared to natural light, but some of the more advanced flash techniques can give great results.

I've just started using flash for a more significant percentage of my photography, and the more I learn about different flash techniques, the more I like it. It's a matter of controlling the light illuminating your subject rather than relying on whatever light happens to be present.

There are ways to modify the color, the direction, the concentration of the flash, and how much it contributes to the overall exposure to prevent the typical objections to flash photography, and the more skilled you are at this, the more "natural" your shots will look. This is where some of the advanced features of the high-end flashes can come into play, and why it might be advantageous to go that route rather than just getting a basic flash unit. There are also many creative ways to get similar results from inexpensive flash units, but the high end units will usually be easier and quicker to set up once you know what you want to achieve. It's really just another aspect of photography. If you choose not to learn and use it, you're only limiting your ability to get the shot that you might really want in a given situation.

With digital "film", the experimentation it takes to learn the different techniques only costs battery power and time. With the digital darkroom, WB issues are overblown -- you can easily pick and choose color balance in PP, so I don't really understand the problem there.

Bottom line, I'm having a lot of fun learning how to use flash to my advantage, and some day, I might even really get good at it.

Of course, YMMV, but this really is a subject with no "right" answer, and has been argued since the times of view cameras and flash powder.

Scott


snostorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 7:39 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Hayward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default

snostorm wrote:
Quote:
I like it. It's a matter of controlling the light illuminating your subject rather than relying on whatever light happens to be present.
And that is something the many ALWAYS FLASH and/or Tripod folks often over look.

For best result BOTH FLASH and TRIPOD require CONTROLLED or at least pretty static conditions.... wonderful when that is the case... but both pretty AWFUL for on the fly, open space, moving around stuff.

And again where IS/SR comes in real handy.

And NOT always for slowest shutter but again long lens (far below 1/FLsafe rule) much slower shutter good resuts.... in fact I find that the MOST valuable.... the ultra low light fast lens SR benefit is jusat icing on the cake.

Hayward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2007, 12:53 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
snostorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago Suburb, IL, USA
Posts: 2,770
Default

Hayward wrote:
Quote:
And that is something the many ALWAYS FLASH and/or Tripod folks often over look.

For best result BOTH FLASH and TRIPOD require CONTROLLED or at least pretty static conditions.... wonderful when that is the case... but both pretty AWFUL for on the fly, open space, moving around stuff.

And again where IS/SR comes in real handy.

And NOT always for slowest shutter but again long lens (far below 1/FLsafe rule) much slower shutter good resuts.... in fact I find that the MOST valuable.... the ultra low light fast lens SR benefit is jusat icing on the cake.
Flash needs pretty static conditions?

I guess that using flash for macros of moving critters or wind-blown flowers (or just to overcome my inability to handhold 1:1 at the shutter speeds required for any DOF @ f11 -16), or freezing the action in sports, or catching water drops (or even bullets) in mid air, or kids (or pets) running around indoors, or shooting birds on a dark cloudy day with a Better Beamer and a long (and relatively "slow") telephoto lens, or candids at a wedding or event -- are all applications that I'll have to re-evaluate my use of flash to get "good" results. . . . . . NOT:-).

As I said before -- there is no "right" answer here. There are too many situations where available light just isn't enough, or when an artsy soft, blurred, or partially blurred image just doesn't cut it. SR isn't a replacement for flash -- it just stretches one's ability to handhold or use just available light (and as all the SR detractors always mention, it doesn't stop subject motion -- but flash does. . .).

Creative techniques utilizing flash stretch a photographer's ability to capture a moment even farther. To forego using the technology for some lofty quasi-purist ideal of available light only is just placing a limitation on your photography IMO, but that's an individual's choice. It may not be for everyone, learning the techniques to get good results is sometimes difficult and frustrating -- just as learning to use the manual features of a camera can be daunting, but I think that the effort -- in both cases -- is worth it.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm a relative novice at using flash. It will probably be quite a while before I feel really competent using flash to its best effect, and luckily, I don't depend on photography to put food on the table. The more I learn about using flash, the more I seem to discover about how much I don't know about its correct use.

Flash is a great, portable, powerful, versatile, and with TTL and P-TTL sometimes brainlessly simple and automatic light source. Use it or not according to your style of shooting or preference. I choose to use it when applicable. It expands my ability to shoot in conditions where without it, I'd just be a spectator.

Scott
snostorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 11, 2007, 12:41 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Hayward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,318
Default

snostorm wrote:
Quote:
It's a matter of controlling the light illuminating your subject rather than relying on whatever light happens to be present.
The caveate to that is WHEN POSSIBLE.... conditions often don't lend themselves to "GOOD" flash lighting.... and must be direct, where I would opt for ambient light over direct flash.

However tonight the Key West Symphony did it annual free concert in FT Zachary St Park.

Under a white peaked (acustically shapped) stage tent.

This worked WONDERFULLY for flash bouncing, but such is not always the case.

And yes there are bounce cards and diffusers but both greaty reduce effective range.
Hayward is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 AM.