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Old Jul 1, 2007, 11:38 PM   #1
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I heard on Leo Laportes podcast the following Question/Answer quote -
Quote:
QUESTION Jason from San Luis Obispo, CA - Washed out photos in Firefox on Flickr
Only Safari honors color profiles
Every Mac supports color profiling
Problem is monitor specific
If you want true color, you need Safari
Then found this and many other references on the net - http://<a href="http://www.gballard....files.html</a>
Quote:
List of Color-Managed Browsers:

Apple's SAFARI for Mac
(Assumes monitor profile on untagged files)

Apple's SAFARI for Windows XP Vista Pro
(Likely Assumes monitor profile on untagged files)
(Read about it on robgalbraith.com)
Safari 3 Information and free DOWNLOAD

OmniWeb 5.1.3 (Mac)
(ColorSync® must be checked in OmniWeb> Preferences> Appearance> Use ColorSync)

Microsoft EXPLORER (Mac)
(ColorSync® must be checked in Explorer> Preferences> Web Content: Use ColorSync)


List of Un-Managed Browsers:

Mozilla FIREFOX (Mac)

OmniWeb 5.1.3 (Mac)
(using default preferences)

Microsoft EXPLORER (Mac)
(using default preferences)

I was told that no PC Windows web browser is colormanaged (so Safari 3 is the only Windows XP Vista Pro browser that will display this white paper with the correct calibrated color).

NEWS 12 June 2007: Apple released Safari 3 Beta, a color-managed WINDOWS browser.
Safari 3 is a free DOWNLOAD.
This is rather sad that not everyone can see how your picture should look, I'm fortunate that I bought a Mac Mini a year ago.

Rodney.
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Old Jul 2, 2007, 8:30 AM   #2
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this is pretty much a monitor specific problem.. if your monitor is not calibrated, and most aren't, there's really no telling what you will actually be viewing. i say if you are happy with what you are seeing then leave it alone because this is something that can drive you crazy.. yes, mine is calibrated.

roy

PS: i loaded safari for windows and it s%%$s. my mouse would not even work properly.
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Old Jul 3, 2007, 12:45 AM   #3
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The "problem" is neither one of operating systems or monitors, it's that these profiles are being left embedded in images that are meant to be viewed on the web. A color profile is used to alter the appearance of imagery to more closely match the output device it is destined for. For example, they are typically used to lighten up the appearance of photos in Windows to more closely match many printers, or used to darken the appearance of images in Mac OS to more closely match a typical video display.

The problem is that these profiles are just an interpretation of the actual RGB data, so that if the profile darkens the way an image appears in Photoshop, the image will appear lighter in any software that does not interpret the profile. If the browser software was able to interpret the profiles, or if the profiles were removed to begin with (typically done via the "Save to web" function in Photoshop), the images would display much closer to what is expected.

Of course an image will not generally appear the same on all devices. Differences in monitors and default gamma settings of the different OS's ensures they will not.

Finally, since the majority of images on the web were originally created by Windows users, and Mac OS has a higher default gamma setting, Mac OS will tend to display the images noticeably brighter than intended, often to the point of looking dull and washed out. I noticed this regularly when I'd bring images from my Windows system at home to my Mac at work. The Mac software may be able to interpret profiles properly, but that's really only advantageous if the images you're viewing originated from a Mac.
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Old Jul 7, 2007, 12:03 AM   #4
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Quote from http://www.labwithleo.com/shownotes/...e41/transcript


Quote:
Leo: BUT I GUESS GOOD. I'M A GOOD GUESSER. WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW. I'LL TELL YOU ONE THING YOU DON'T WANT TO GUESS AT IF YOU'RE DOING DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY IS MATCHING THE COLOUR IN YOUR CAMERA, THE COLOUR OF WHAT YOU SAW, TO WHAT'S ON YOUR SCREEN TO WHAT'S ON YOUR PRINTER. IT IS A BLACK ART. IT IS DIFFICULT TO DO, BUT WE'VE GOT AN EXPERT. RAY MAXWELL IS A RETIRED ELECTRONICS ENGINEER, A COLOUR SCIENTIST. AND I'LL TELL YOU JUST HOW HARD THIS IS. HEY, RAY. WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
Ray: HEY. GLAD TO BE HERE.
Leo: BRUCE FRASER'S BOOK ON COLOUR MANAGEMENT, LOOK HOW THICK THIS IS. THIS IS JUST ONE BOOK ON THIS SUBJECT!
Ray: JUST ONE.
Leo: AND THERE'S -- AND ACTUALLY, IN HIS NEW PHOTOSHOP CS3 BOOK, HE COVERS THE SAME THING.
Ray: MM-HMM.
Leo: THE LATE BRUCE FRASER WAS REALLY AN EXPERT ON ALL OF THIS STUFF. [Pop captions up]
Ray: HE CONTRIBUTED AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT TO THE INDUSTRY.
Leo: PART OF THE REASON IT'S DIFFICULT IS THAT THE SCREEN DOESN'T PRODUCE COLOUR THE SAME WAY A PRINTER PRODUCES COLOUR, RIGHT? [Pop captions down]
Ray: THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Leo: YEAH.
Ray: AND IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, IT HAS TO DO WITH OUR HUMAN EYES, BUT THAT'S A DEEP DARK SUBJECT.
Leo: WE SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
Ray: YES, AND THE THING WE SEE ON A CRT IS ACTUALLY AN ILLUSION IN OUR BRAIN.
Leo: (Chuckling) OH, GREAT.
Ray: (Laughing)
Leo: SO WE'RE TRYING TO MATCH AN ILLUSION TO A REALITY?
Ray: YOU GOT IT!
Leo: OH, WELL, THAT'S RIDICULOUS. (Laughing)
Ray: YEAH, AND --
Leo: THAT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!
Ray: (Chuckling)
Leo: NOW, I GET THIS CALL A LOT FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY FRUSTRATED, AND MOST OF THE TIME, THEY'RE NOT SUPER SOPHISTICATED USERS. THEY'RE JUST SAYING, "LOOK, I TOOK THIS PICTURE OF A BEAUTIFUL RED FLOWER. IT'S PINK ON MY PRINTER. WHAT DO I DO?"
Ray: EXACTLY. WELL, THE SOLUTION IS A THING WE CALL "COLOUR MANAGEMENT," WHICH IS WHAT THIS BOOK IS ALL ABOUT.
Leo: RIGHT.
Ray: AND THE HEART OF THAT IS ICC PROFILES.
Leo: ICC PROFILES.
Ray: AND I WANT TO SHOW YOU WHAT THEY DO FOR US.
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: NOW, I HAVE A BROWSER UP HERE THAT IS NOT AWARE OF ICC PROFILES. IT HAPPENS TO BE FIREFOX. I KNOW THAT'S ONE OF YOUR FAVOURITES.
Leo: YEAH, BUT I DON'T PICK IT FOR COLOUR MANAGEMENT, I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, YEAH.
Ray: BUT IT IS NOT COLOUR-AWARE, SO --
Leo: NOW, THAT IS AN ISSUE ON THE WEB BECAUSE IF YOU'RE BUYING CLOTHING, I MEAN THIS IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE OF AN ISSUE.
Ray: YES.
Leo: YOU WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET ON THE WEB EVEN.
Ray: EXACTLY.
Leo: YEAH. SO ARE THERE BROWSERS THAT SUPPORT ICC?
Ray: YES, AND I'M GONNA DEMONSTRATE IT TO YOU HERE.
Leo: SO FIREFOX DOES NOT.
Ray: I'VE GOT TWO FILES OPEN HERE.
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: AND THEY HAVE DIFFERENT RGB VALUES IN THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT GAMMAS WHEN THEY WERE MADE.
Leo: THE GAMMA IS THE BRIGHTNESS?
Ray: BRIGHTNESS CURVE. [Pop captions up]
Leo: CURVE, OKAY.
Ray: AND SO NOW THEN WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS I'VE GOT A GAMMA 1 AND A GAMMA 2.2. IF I OPEN IT IN A BROWSER THAT ISN'T COLOUR-AWARE, AND I SWITCH BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THESE TWO, I GET VERY DIFFERENT RESULTS. [Pop captions down]
Leo: IT SHOULDN'T BE SO DIFFERENT.
Ray: NO, IF -- AND THERE ARE TAGS IN THESE FILES THAT ARE TELLING IT HOW THE TWO FILES ARE DIFFERENT.
Leo: IT'S JUST IGNORING THEM.
Ray: AND IT'S IGNORING THEM.
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: IT'S SENDING THE RGB DATA RIGHT TO THE MONITOR JUST THE WAY IT CAME OUT OF THE FILE.
Leo: GOT IT.
Ray: ALL RIGHT? SO NOW WE'LL CLOSE THIS BROWSER, AND WE WILL HAVE A LOOK AT HOW SAFARI HANDLES THE PROBLEM.
Leo: AND THIS IS APPLE'S OWN.
Ray: YEAH. AND NOW THOSE ARE THE SAME TWO FILES --
Leo: WOW!
Ray: OPENED IN TWO WINDOWS ON SAFARI --
Leo: AND IT HANDLES IT MUCH BETTER.
Ray: YEAH.
Leo: IS INTERNET EXPLORER ICC --
Ray: ONE OF THE FUNNY THINGS IS THE LAST VERSION OF INTERNET EXPLORER THAT RAN ON THE MACINTOSH --
Leo: YEAH.
Ray: WAS COLOUR-AWARE.
Leo: BUT --
Ray: THERE ARE NO BROWSERS ON THE WINDOWS PROGRAM --
Leo: REALLY?
Ray: NO, THAT ARE COLOUR-AWARE.
Leo: REALLY? SO REALLY, IF YOU'RE A COLOUR PRODUCTION PERSON --
Ray: YEP.
Leo: YOU'RE GONNA BE USING SAFARI.
Ray: YOU GOT IT.
Leo: WOW, VERY INTERESTING.
Ray: YEAH.
Leo: WHAT IS AN ICC PROFILE?
Ray: ALL RIGHT, I'M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT.
Leo: (Chuckling)
Ray: THAT LEADS INTO MY SLIDE HERE.
Leo: IT'S EASY FOR ME. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW. (Laughing)
Ray: AN ICC PROFILE IS A MAP.
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: AND IT MAPS FROM DEVICE-SPECIFIC COLOUR BECAUSE NO TWO DEVICES PRODUCE COLOUR EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, AND SO YOU HAVE TO MATCH THE RGB VALUES THAT MAP TO A CERTAIN COLOUR --
Leo: RIGHT.
Ray: INTO THIS PROFILE. AND THE PROFILE IS JUST A ROSETTA STONE, OKAY, AND THE ROSETTA ZONE, ROSETTA STONE COLOUR SPACE IS LAB.
Leo: LAB.
Ray: SO IF WE TAKE A LOOK AT THIS, IMAGINE THAT YOU HAVE YOUR SYSTEM ALL CALIBRATED, AND YOU SEND ME A FILE, AN RGB FILE, IN ADOBE 98.
Leo: RIGHT.
Ray: IT OUTPUTS THE RGB VALUES THAT ARE IN THE FILE, BUT IT ALSO HAS THAT TAG THAT TELLS ME THE COLOUR SPACE IT'S IN, AND I FEED THAT INTO THE PROFILE, THE RGB VALUES, AND IT OUTPUTS LAB --
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: INSIDE PHOTOSHOP. THIS IS INSIDE PHOTOSHOP OR, IN THE CASE OF --
Leo: WE DON'T HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT LAB. YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOOK AT IT IF YOU WANT.
Ray: YES, IF YOU WANT.
Leo: BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO.
Ray: BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE, SINCE VERSION 1, HIDDEN INSIDE.
Leo: IS IT KIND OF THE UNDERLYING COLOUR MANAGEMENT?
Ray: IT IS.
Leo: BELOW RGB, THIS IS WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON.
Ray: THIS IS WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON.
Leo: OKAY.
Ray: AFTER IT OUTPUTS LAB, WE GO UP TO THIS MONITOR PROFILE, WHICH WE'RE GONNA CREATE HERE NEXT, AND IT THEN CONVERTS LAB BACK TO RGB THAT'S SPECIFIC TO THIS MONITOR.
Leo: SO IN OTHER WORDS, IT SAYS, "THIS IS WHAT I HAVE TO DO TO MAKE IT LOOK RIGHT ON THIS PARTICULAR MONITOR." I'VE SEEN THAT HAPPEN WHEN I OPEN A PHOTOSHOP FILE. IT'LL SAY, "I DON'T HAVE A -- THE COLOUR PROFILE DOESN'T MATCH."
Ray: YES.
Leo: "SHOULD I CHOOSE A DIFFERENT COLOUR PROFILE?"
Ray: RIGHT. WELL, IF THE -- IF YOU KNOW THE FILE CAME FROM SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING, THERE'S NO PROBLEM.
Leo: SAY "KEEP THE ONE THAT'S IN THERE."
Ray: KEEP THE ONE THAT'S IN THERE.
Leo: RIGHT.
Ray: IF YOU DON'T, JUST OPEN IT IN THE COLOUR SPACE YOU'RE WORKING IN AND COLOUR-CORRECT IT.
Leo: THIS IS SUCH A BIG SUBJECT, WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE TIME TO FINISH IT. WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT. THIS IS KIND OF THE DEVICE THAT PROS USE TO MEASURE THE SCREEN.
Ray: YES.
Leo: IT'S CALLED A COLORIMETER.
Ray: YES.
Leo: SO THEY PUT THIS ON THE SCREEN WITH SOME SOFTWARE, AND THAT'S SO THEY CAN CALIBRATE THE SCREEN.
Ray: YES.
Leo: IS THERE SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOR A PRINTER AS WELL?
Ray: YES, ONLY IT'S A SPECTROPHOTOMETER.
Leo: OKAY, SO YOU'RE USING THESE TWO DIFFERENT DEVICES --
Ray: MM-HMM.
Leo: TO CREATE COLOUR PROFILES --
Ray: YES.
Leo: SO THAT THEY CAN THEN MATCH UP.
Ray: EXACTLY.
Leo: HOW MUCH AM I GONNA SPEND TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
Ray: THIS IS ONLY ABOUT $250 U.S. THE SPECTROPHOTOMETER'S ABOUT $1500.
Leo: OOH! SO IT'S NOT SOMETHING REALLY FOR AMATEURS, AND YET WE DO WANT THIS KIND OF COLOUR MATCHING.
Ray: RIGHT. THE BARE BASE MINIMUM IS TO USE THE COLORIMETER FOR YOUR MONITOR AND USE THE PRINTER MANUFACTURER'S PROFILES.
Leo: THEY GIVE YOU A PROFILE.
Ray: YES, AND THEY'RE GETTING BETTER AND BETTER.
Leo: THAT'S KEY. ALL RIGHT. THIS IS SUCH A BIG SUBJECT, OBVIOUSLY WE CAN DO A LOT MORE. THE BOOK THAT RAY RECOMMENDS IS BRUCE FRASER'S COLOUR MANAGEMENT, REAL WORLD COLOUR MANAGEMENT. ALSO, HIS PHOTOSHOP CS3 BOOK IS JUST NOW COMING OUT.
Ray: THAT'S RIGHT.
Leo: BRUCE PASSED AWAY JUST RECENTLY AND WAS ONE OF THE GREATS IN THIS SUBJECT.
Ray: OH, HE CONTRIBUTED MORE TO THE INDUSTRY THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE COLOUR SCIENTIST.
Leo: FORTUNATELY HIS BOOKS ARE STILL OUT THERE.
Ray: YES. [Pop captions up]
Leo: AND RAY HAS A WHOLE ARTICLE ON THIS ON OUR WEBSITE, labwithleo.com, SO YOU CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS. COME BACK AND TELL US MORE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW.
Ray: I'D BE HAPPY TO.
Leo: THANK YOU, RAY MAXWELL. WE'LL BE BACK WITH A FINAL WORD RIGHT AFTER THIS. [Pop captions down]
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