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Old Apr 21, 2008, 7:07 PM   #11
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Wow, I'm impressed with all the replies this topic has received!

Perhaps "dishonest" was a poor word choice on my part. I think there is a difference in the veracity of a photo when it comes to cropping vs adjusting curves etc. because cameras don't necessarily get the image right. The image data is influenced by the engineers who developed the sensor, lens, algorithms, etc.

Mtngal, you are certainly not a "hack" like me! You post wonderful, tasteful photos with extremely enjoyable commentary and technical insight. I appreciate that very much.

Here's what got me thinking about photo-cropping: I see on various photo-forums people post pics, where the distant subject - tiny in relation to the photo's entire fram - is extracted and then posted for comment/critique. For example, here's a full frame:
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Old Apr 21, 2008, 7:09 PM   #12
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But, instead of posting the shot, the picture-taker crops away 90% of the scene so he can display this:
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Old Apr 21, 2008, 7:15 PM   #13
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Now, unless the squirrel were doing something remarkable - say, picking his nose - what's the point of posting this postage stamp of a photo? Often, the pictures are even blurrier and less detailed.

I mean, I realize that all is in the eye of the beholder, and fact is I am just now getting over being pleased with any shot that is in focus.

Maybe I was just too damn cranky and tired when I posted this topic!
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Old Apr 21, 2008, 7:47 PM   #14
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Photography is a process which starts with your eye percieving a photo and the camera capturing it, then you post process it and Print or Post it on the web. Dishonesty is only there when you present it to people and don't tell( when asked )the truth of how you did it. Other than that it is honest in every way! All great photographers Cropped their photos from time to time...I cannot to this day understand why anyone would think cropping or post processing is not an honest way to prepare a photo. Enhancement is almost always done to your photos if sent to a lab for film processing. Why is it dishonest to artfully do that on the computer at your home? The final product is the end result of your artistry...Nice to get one right from the camera without post processing, but the odds are against any photographer-camera-lens-subject-setting combination allowing you to consistantly do that every time. Just ain't gonna happen no matter how good you and your equipment happens to be.

Go here and see this photo I took of my granddaughter. The B&W at the top is a crop and post process of the photo towards the bottom of the second page. Then please tell me how getting the B&W was dishonest by post processing the second photo? I wish I could do this all the time, if I can get results like this! LOL

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...mp;forum_id=80


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Old Apr 21, 2008, 8:11 PM   #15
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Dawg, I certainly don't consider post-processing to necessarily be "dishonest" - and again, I regret my choice of that word - as there is no guarantee that the camera catches scene properly. See my previous comments about that.

Except for a bit of funkiness in the lower right-hand corner of the photo of your granddaughter, it is a wonderful shot of a beautiful girl.

I'll use Trojansoc's line here:
"When shooting small birds, distance often forces me into a high crop ratio."
So then, why shoot the birds, when, if your subject is the bird, it winds up being a blurry, unusable mess?

-BB
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Old Apr 21, 2008, 9:04 PM   #16
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brokenbokeh wrote:
Quote:
"When shooting small birds, distance often forces me into a high crop ratio."
So then, why shoot the birds, when, if your subject is the bird, it winds up being a blurry, unusable mess?

-BB
Well, manypeople would rather have a less than perfect shot of something they enjoy shooting than a perfectly sharp shot of a subject they don't care about. Most people here are hobbyists not pros. So they shoot what they enjoy shooting. So it's about the enjoyment of the hobby. I'm sure I could get sharper images if I shot bowls of fruit, but I'd be bored to tears doing that.

So even though that squirrel cutout doesn't have much detail - if that's what you enjoy shooting then it's better than a sharp bowl of fruit (unless you enjoy shooting bowls of fruit )


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Old Apr 21, 2008, 9:33 PM   #17
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LOL!

Right on, John!!!
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Old Apr 21, 2008, 9:49 PM   #18
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JohnG wrote:
Quote:
brokenbokeh wrote:
Quote:
"When shooting small birds, distance often forces me into a high crop ratio."
So then, why shoot the birds, when, if your subject is the bird, it winds up being a blurry, unusable mess?

-BB
Well, manypeople would rather have a less than perfect shot of something they enjoy shooting than a perfectly sharp shot of a subject they don't care about. Most people here are hobbyists not pros. So they shoot what they enjoy shooting. So it's about the enjoyment of the hobby. I'm sure I could get sharper images if I shot bowls of fruit, but I'd be bored to tears doing that.

So even though that squirrel cutout doesn't have much detail - if that's what you enjoy shooting then it's better than a sharp bowl of fruit (unless you enjoy shooting bowls of fruit )

I like Bowls Of fruit!!!!! But I can't stand to photograph a lot of them!! LOL BB wasn't upset with your words just offering my viewpoint here. Sorry if it came across wrong...You must remember that no one has the same viewpoint on this subject and for some a closeup of a squirrel made by cropping an image taken with a wider lens is for now the only way they may be able to get that close up. Given time and the desire to do so they will bump up to a better lens with more zoom. Then that much cropping may not be needed. I've had so many say they like the non cropped version better then others say they like the crop better that I post a lot with the cropped and uncropped there for each of them. I usually hold my opinion in check and just print them the way I like best. I know in my days of using my DX6490 I could not only not get very good uncropped ones but I couldn't get very good cropped ones either....4 mega pixels just don't cut it! I'm still trying for better and better small bird photos and having a ball learning how to shoot and post process them. I made a promise to a Sweet Lady on another forum to try them and haven't regretted doing so as I have learned so much from the trying! One day I'll move on to something else but for now they are still not mastered as I wish them to be....Also I post the good with the bad quite often to get a response as to how I could do them better( even when I already know that answer well). The reason? Some one else may not know that answer and the critiques tell them! So when you see one of mine that is blurry please feel free to say so and also say what you think I could do to do it better.



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Old Apr 21, 2008, 10:27 PM   #19
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I like bowls of fruit - especially emptying them! :cart:

It's nice to see so many responses to this topic. For one thing, it's making me rethink my not-too-firmly established position on cropping. Of course, tasteful cropping can also be a challenge - at least for me.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's responses. :-)


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Old Apr 21, 2008, 11:10 PM   #20
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I think that John posted the key to everything - it's what makes the photographer happy. I've kept the almost 100% crop of the red-tail hawkI took (after the raven left), even though it's not very good by the standards here (and I won't post it here). It's the best I've managed so far, and I'm quite happy with it. I even have kept the picture of the hawk flying away and looking back atthe raven, taken with the 50-135. I'm not much of a birder, and to me it was a magical moment to watch and capture at least a bit of what went on. Someone like Scott would take one look atthem and grimace. I'm sure John shudders whenever I post sports pictures in the past, though I've been practicing with track and have gotten somebetter pictures recently.

Also, cropping can create a beautiful picture, too, under the right circumstances - the picture I took of the raindrops on the spider webwas either 100% crop or close to it, and it was chosen for POD here at Steve's. On the other hand, you are right that cropping too much often makes for a lousy picture, showing up camera shake and focus problems that wouldn't be so apparent if the picture had been left full frame and resized down.

This is an interesting discussion because it's also leading into what makes a good picture, from a post processing point of view as well as a technical point of view, as in how much cropping can you do and still have a "viable" picture (it's getting past my bedtime and I can't think of a better word. "Viable" isn't really the right word for what I'm trying to say).
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