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Old Mar 21, 2009, 10:53 PM   #1
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Good Evening Everyone, For the last 6 months or so I have been waiting and watching, thinking that the K30 would be announced in early March. Well as we all know it didn't happen. The price on the K20 has fallen to the point that I am saying - why not! Especially since, I just saw a price of $675 body only from a reputable online seller that I have used in the past.

My problem is that I do not think that my skills have progressed to the level of the K20. There are limitations on the K100 that I keep bumping into to, but I manage - however, there are K100 functionalities that I have not used yet (really not had the need to).

I am somewhat afraid of waiting for the new body and not liking it and bypassing the K20 - especially at this price. I am thinking that the new body will be over $1k ($1500) - who knows, and will hold at least through this time next year, before the price starts to drop. So it would be at least 18 to 24 months of using the K100 - which I could easily do.

I like landscapes and panoramas - wide angle photography. My primary lens set consists of the 10-17FE, 12-24, 16-45 and 55-300 with a manual 50/1.7 (all Pentax). So I would not need any additional lenses to make use of the higher resolution. Here is what I have been doing lately -

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...mp;forum_id=23

I have had to travel light, so I used my newly acquired LX3 to take some test photos to see how things would go, for when I could bring my big stuff along.

What areas of the K20 would I like to use the most...
  • ISO 100 - I am finding that the K100's 200 is limiting, especially for evening and sunset work. Also, I find that I like to shoot in the evening. I do not think that 3200 and 6400 would be that useful.
    [/*]
  • Orientation Sensor - its a little thing, but having to constantly rotate everything is annoying.[/*]
  • The Menu - moving a number of functions out to manual wheels, would certainly help.[/*]
  • The PentaMirror - I like my old Spotmatic II prism much better.[/*]
  • Resolution - going from 6 to 14MP would certainly help with the IQ and real estate for cropping, and increase the overall resolution for stitching.[/*]
  • Buffer Size - When shooting images for stitching, I keep over running the buffer size and have to wait.
    [/*]
The items of the K20 I would not enjoy -
  • The weight - an extra 5oz (actually not that much), but 20% more than the K100[/*]
  • The size - its larger[/*]
  • Now that being said - I have never held one, since there is no store around here that carries them.[/*]
There are a lot of folks here on the forum still shooting with the previous *ist model at 6MP and doing just fine. I am still doing just fine with my current body.

I have the funds already set aside - at $1500 I would not be making this post, nor would I be even considering a new body. At $675 (tax free and no shipping) for essentially a professional body that I would never grow out of - is obscene. I feel that Pentax is clearing out its inventory.

So, there you have it. Suggestions - especially from folks who have made the switch up to the K20.
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 11:34 PM   #2
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IO,

As you know, I don't have the K20D, yet. I ordered one yesterday from Buydig. $669.00 with a 3 year warranty and a Pentax small DSLR bag. Free Shipping.

However, I do have a K100D and a K10D. The K100D takesexcellent pics. It just doesn't do what I need it to do all the time. Write time to the card, the delay in pic review and the tiny bufferare infuriating on the K100D. The K10D and the K20D are so much faster at this, you have to experience it to appreciate it. Also, having more functions button operated versus menu operated saves a ton of time. I never knew how much I don't like going into the menu to change metering mode on the K100D.

For landscape work on a tripod, the K100D is awsome. I still use it because of it's high ISO performance. I limit the K10D to 400, 800 in a pinch. If you expose properly, the noise isn't impossible to deal with.

For the money, I think it would be impossible to go wrong.

I also have a bid on a new/used DA *50-135. The wifey was in a very understanding frame of mind yesterday!!! If the sale falls through, I wil buy a new one somewhere.

Dennis
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Old Mar 21, 2009, 11:55 PM   #3
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I've owned the DS, K100, K10 and now the K20. When I had the K10, I carried and used the K100 as a second body much of the time, keeping a long lens (or macro) lens on the K10 and something wide on the K100. Once I got the K20, I found myself leaving the K100 at home more and more, and going back to switching lenses much more. I just like the K20's pictures better.

While I've played with a large amount of features the K20 has, I haven't tried everything. And I hardly ever use several that I do know about. I don't think that's a reason for not upgrading, especially if the K20 gives you something you want, that the K100 doesn't have. I know what you mean about the orientation sensor - it is nice to have!

The size and weight is actually fairly significant, but I find the K20 very comfortable to use. They made some minor ergonomic changes compared to the K10 - I'm not sure it that's the reason or if it's psychosomatic because of the AF problems I was having with the K10, but I find the K20 more comfortable to use. I still think that this is as heavy a camera I can manage - if there's a FF or a heavier model in the future, I'll most likely skip it.

But it sounds like you have some really good reasons for upgrading, and as you say, it might not be as easy to upgrade in the future.

I can't think of any reason why you should wait, if the K20 provides you things you want, but doesn't leave you wanting something more (if I were primarily shooting sports, I'd definitely wait to see what the future holds. As a landscape/macro photographer, the K20 is fine for me and I'll try to keep my camera envy in check). As you say, the price is incredible.
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Old Mar 22, 2009, 12:08 AM   #4
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Hi Harriet.

I actually shot quite a bit of sports with the K100d. It was an exercise in patience...LOL!

I shoot sports with the K10D but it is mostly swimming...not exctly as fast moving as football but I have shot racing, too. It does pretty well at that, too. Knowledge of the track helps. I am hoping the K20 is at least as good as the K10D is at these. I think it will. I should be able to use higher ISO to push shutter speeds where I need them.

My first Pentax was the DL. The 6mp sensors really are quite good.

Dennis
This isthe K10 and the Sigma 100-300 EX. Approaching dusk at Daytons.




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Old Mar 22, 2009, 3:16 AM   #5
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Hi IO!

The main differences I notice between my *istDS and K20D are:



in favour of the *istDS

- smaller, lighter

- very good high ISO performance

- TTL flash metering (which I don't think the K100D has)



in favour of the K20D

- two wheels for aperture/time/exposure compensation. These wheels can be customized to personal taste via menu settings, something I really like.

- the higher resolution

- batteries that last and are reliable

- much larger LCD

- SR (the K100D has that, right?)

- dust removal. I never had any dust on sensor problems with my K20D, but do have it with the DS.



These are the mains. In addition to this both bodies have a lot of buttons and functions I rarely use (I always shoot RAW and nearly always in AV mode), and the K20D has a lot more of these. Might be important for some, but not to me. The *istDS still holds value, and served me well on my last trip to Colombia.

Kjell


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Old Mar 22, 2009, 12:12 PM   #6
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What can I say that hasn't been said?:-?
If it were me... I'd have to go for the K20!
I have both the K10 and 20, love em both but, the 20 is much better at higher ISO's

GW:bye:
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Old Mar 22, 2009, 1:15 PM   #7
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Obviously you are not the first to wrestle with this question. I have been through the whole gamut from the *istD to the K20. The K20 is a great camera and I use it a lot, but I still use the K100, while the K10 is relegated to back-up status. The K100 still has its place. What you choose to buy and use should depend on your own level of expertise and your expectations - in other words choose whatever suits your style. Just because something is newer, or bigger, or faster, or otherwise "better" in someone else's judgement doesn't necessarily mean it is right for you. In another forum a rank beginner (in digital photography) - which you are not - is trying to decide between a K200 and a K20 - here is (somewhat out of context) an excerpt from my rather too long pontification, with which not everyone will agree, in that thread (the references to the K200 in this portion can apply to the K100 as well):

"The K20 has a CMOS sensor rather than the CCD of the other Pentaxes, and little of the simplicity of the other current Pentax models. It is a near professional level camera, which few photographers have yet to use to its maximum potential. Its manual controls allow - require - an advanced knowledge of and considerable experience with photography to use it effectively and get the most out of it. A beginner might use only the automatic Green mode, which would make it no more useful that a single mode point-and shoot.

The K200 has the ability to allow a good deal of manual control, but has a number of preprogrammed modes that allow a beginner to use it more effectively under differing conditions, so it allows for gradual growth - once it has been used to its maximum potential, then it would be time to move up to the K20 (or its successor), A rank beginner starting off with the K20 would be like a nonswimmer jumping into the ocean without a life preserver.

The K20 may be on the verge of being discontinued, but that makes it no less of a great camera - get one while you can - but only if you need it and can use it. The K200 is not an inferior camera - it is just different.

[While test charts may not show much difference] You can look at the laboratory tests of sensor performance in the reviews, but they will not reveal the less tangible benefits of the CMOS sensor, nor its real world performance.

Comparing the features and operation of the two cameras or of the two types of sensor is like trying to compare apples and oranges - they can be contrasted, but not compared.

Bottom line: [There will always be something "better" coming along, but its prices will eventually drop, too] Technology changes fast. Buy [or keep] what you can use best now, and let the future take care of itself."
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Old Mar 22, 2009, 3:54 PM   #8
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Thanks for the replies, and especially the price point at $669 at buydig - that's another $6 in savings! There are so many items that I would like to try and the K20 gets me much closer. Maybe my skill level is higher that what I thought.

One of my favorite images I have taken was out at sea on the BonHomme Richard UNREPing with the Mileus - and its only 6mp. I have been experimenting with getting to colors right for printing a very large sheet for framing to hang in my office, and there is a definite limit to how large I can go.

Remote - the K100 does not support it and its something I have played around with on the Canon SD500 and would like to try it with a dSLR - I have a lot of ideas.

Astrophotography - I replied to a posting in another area last week. Its something I would like to do, but there is sufficient work (and croping), that for a 6mp image I would again feel cheated. At 14MP with all the work, there is a good potential for something that could qualify for hanging on the wall.

The SV mode or the green button - I miss shooting the way I shot with my spotmatic II, so I think that this brings it back.

5 Image Autobracketing - I did not realize this item had been expanded from 3.

Also it appears that Pentax is going to concrentrate on entry/enthuasis level units as opposed to the K20 level, so this may be my last opportunity for a while...

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_278342.html

I appreciate all the suggestions....


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Old Mar 22, 2009, 6:07 PM   #9
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There is a translation of an interview with the new Pentax head of development. If accurate (and if plans do not change), it signals that the recession has had a significant impact on Pentax's plans. There will be an introduction this summer of a "K20 class" dslr, and a replacement for the K200 in 2010. The replacement for the K20 will be a smaller, lighter, but no less capable camera, but significantly different from it. It will probably be no less expensive, however, as he expressed the opinion that the recession would primarily affect the introductory consumer level, but not the K20 class, since serious photographers can be expected to continue to pay for whatever is necessary to get what they want. The K20 class is to be positioned to compete well in that class, but to have more of the popular features (whatever those are).

Lens design will also change to be more in line with the smaller, lighter Limited class of premium lenses.

This says to me that if you like the size, weight, features, and operation of the K20 as it is, grab one while you can, because you might not like the successor. On the other hand, if there are significant drqwbacks to the K20 as it is for you, you can wait, and you might like what follows better, and you won't be "stuck" with a tank when what you really want is a Jeep.

They will also restart the development of their larger format camera, but it will not be marketed in the US because they don't think they could sell more than 200 units here.

If you think Pentax's (= Hoya's) Japanese management doesn't understand the American market, you are with me.

The translation can be found on the Pentaxforum site:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/520089-post60.html
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Old Mar 22, 2009, 7:57 PM   #10
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Penolta - Thanks for the link, as I had missed that one. Two items on following the Pentax replacement saga that have my concern here in terms of the K20. The first is the lens issue. Pentax is famous for backwards compatibility (which I would not expect to change) and over the last 4 years I have made an investment in glass, that I am not about to replace overnight - if ever! I just do not know what the future will hold here, however I know that my glass works very well with the K20. From your link, I found this to be very interesting...

Quote:
PENTAX plans to revise standard DA lenses that will to be fit to new K20D class model (this is not a direct successor of K20D). Mr. Kawauchi said "When new camera will appear, you must know the whole thing about the reason of revising. Enjoy waiting." "The lenses revising include no optical layout change, but refinement to fit to the new body." What functions will new body have? He did not mention specific things about it. "New body should have full functions in trend of DSLR world. If the functions are not enough, PENTAX users will get disappointed apparently."
So it looks like that they are considering updating the packaging of the lenses, the exterior. I am thinking that the size of the optical elements are fixed - "no optical layout" changes, and maybe the interface to possibly handle a new autofocusing upgrade (just a guess here folks - cuz I do not know).

The other item, I actually touched on and that is price. The current $670 price point is actually absolutely incredible. When you look at the price that the K20 came out at and its subsequent drop here, and compare it with a couple of sound bits from your link...

Quote:
At the end of the interview, Mr. Kawauchi said to PENTAX fans. "Obviously there is world wide recession. We think recession mainly affects entry-level DSLRs. In high-amateur level category, customers will pay to the products that they love and want seriously".
Quote:
PENTAX developed 2 DSLR models in September 2008, Photokina season, but PENTAX revised development roadmap after Photokina; K20D class model will hit the market by the summer 2009, K200D class model will hit the market in the New Year season 2010.
I would have to say that the replacement will in all probability (and I do not know - just a wild guess here) at least equal the K20 introductory price (~$1000 to $1500 ??), especially considering the dollar/yen relationship (but considering the economy, say $1200). Then, with the K200 replacement following next year, and to maintain some sort of price strategy between the two models, I am thinking that the K20 replacement will in all probability maintain its higher price so as to provide pricing room for the K200 replacement. [Just remember folks, that this is all guess work on my part.] So, I figure that it will be about 24 to 36 months until the new camera sees the current K20 price levels, i.e. just about the time its replacement will be discussed.

So taking a WAG here (its a precise engineering term, meaning Wild A** Guess), what new features would need to be added that the K20 does not already have - 1) better autofocusing (from the KM + improvements); 2) better live view; 3) video with active focusing; 4) smaller size and weight; 5) ______ (fill in the blank).

I think I can live with out all of them. The better autofocusing would be a plus, but the K20 is better than the K100 to a degree, and I am satisfied with the K100 in that respect. Robert Barnett in his famous K20/D90 odyssey (and you have to love his posting icon) did a wonderful job going through all the features along with the pros and cons of the K20.

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...mp;forum_id=80

So after checking with the Chancellor of the Exchequer (as in happy wife - happy life), (and a bonus check for a patent submission tends to help a bit..., even though I have been saving up my lunch money for quite a while.)

I pulled the trigger at buydig.com - body, case and 3 year warranty for $670.

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