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Old Apr 20, 2006, 11:32 AM   #41
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vindolanda wrote:
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Now if thats what patrons want then fine. Do we than have to ask for a further page in Steves titled "Critique - (only photographic critique this time - I mean it!)" or will that page then be swamped also?
Great idea Vindolandabut I thinkkeep the Critiques page in tact since it has alreadysuch a rich history- lets ask rather for aless sombre page forwe Philistines to cavort around in, which we could call the 'Trash Heap'


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Old Apr 20, 2006, 11:49 AM   #42
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Point taken…but…you knew it was coming didn't you?? :blah:

Like any open forum, it comes down to two things. Function and use. The function of this forum is Critiques and Techniques. Most threads still ask for C&T. However, most posts are friendly catch all shots.

Ok the majority of the shots aren't fine art, but do we need to Critique fine art? An expert professional photographer doesn't need the opinion of a dozen amateurs to know his/her shots are good. But an amateur practicing his/her hobby needs encouragement, needs criticisms, needs somewhere to show off.

Now to look at the facts of the forum. Excluding this thread, according to my figures, there currently 282 posts*, spread over 31 topics. That's an average of 9 per theme. The highest reaching 41, the lowest 0. To me this suggests an active forum. The "Run of the Mill" rarely provoke debate, with the occasional shot drawing interest.

There is of course a danger that a good shot will be lost in all the muddle. But the Critiques forum, without a steady stream of debate, would/could become stagnant. And we would still run the risk of missing that good post due to lack of interest. Catch 22.

There is also the question of forum choice. While there is an excellent selection available, some shots don't fall into strict categories. The excess has to go somewhere. Also some people do logon for chatter and general showing off. Others may find this annoying, but that's the price paid for joining a successful MessageBoard.




*Least there was when I added them up…
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Old Apr 20, 2006, 12:55 PM   #43
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Also good points.

I tend to think the critique forum out of all the other topics pages is the most unhealthy. It depends on what you mean by healthy of course. If you mean by the number of posts running then ok, but if measuring by the attitude and amount of bitching then it comparesbadly with the other pages.

Personally I think this is because on those other pages the rules are more carefully and I add easily adhered to. You can ask in those areas if you want to a critique or not and the type of photo is dictated by the forum page title... all fair enough.

It seems to be the case also to me that the sheer number of posts is in itself having a negative influence because onewouldsimply be unable to answeranywhere near the majority of new posts coming in daily. This therefore groups individuals together andgenerates cliques even if unintentionally. Where after some time certain people are not welcome on others threads if indeed they are even entering thosethreads to have a look This is something that is not happening on the other pages.

Due to the very nature of critique (ie often takes a bit of time with detailed explanation) I am surprised the forum rules does not specify a limit of new threads that should be generated by individuals, daily or weekly. Which is a very common thing I have seen on other sites. This would mean participants would take more time on individual photos, and in their general selection. (now that cant be a bad thing - photographically) and secondly everyone would have a better chance of getting round to participate with more people. Its gotta make the place a bit friendlier all round. ?

When critique is asked for and given, there is always the potential that due to the very nature of critique, that offense can be taken, even when not intended. Therefore I tend to thing the critique area will always be a little more emotive than the other pages. However as it seems to be a place that many like to come, hang out, read, write and generally participate. Why doesn't one of the more senor participants have a word (short message)with one of the moderators to see if a couple extra rules could not be added for the possibility of a smother running area. ?
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Old Apr 20, 2006, 1:37 PM   #44
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As a reply to Vindolanda . . .

Firstly it seemsa bitof a coincidence that you resurected yourself here at the same time LBoy and I were at crossed purposes. Especially as you two have a little history from previous threads. The same goes for Peripatetic too. On the day Lboy posted her critiques and I responded to them, I had pm'd Craig enquiring about his non activity in Critiques. His view is one that I know is shared and felt by one or two others. We've discussed that 'till it's threadbare here relatively recently. Still he bounced back , and my opinion is that it was to give LBoy suuport in a shared view and perhaps assist in getting the forum back on the right track in his opinion. Who knows?.

Even Craig declared LBoy as a troll to be avoided not so long back, but obviously over time their relationship on here has developed beyond his initial feelings aired. Such is the way of things.

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...321811#p321811





My responses were not because LBoy had given me a heavy critique. That, I welcome with open arms. I am a total novice in photography and here to learn as well as enjoy the light hearted banter. In fact who better (in Dustin's absence) could I aquire such knowledgable advice from than LBoy?

What I took offence to, was the way in which it was delivered. I do find sarcasm and arrogance rather ugly.

I think that I have also proved the point that a few others had been upset by her comments, or more the delivery (one to the extent of deciding to give up photography all together until Dustin's encouraging words). Besides, my feelings are that LBoy also wanted to make a point about the current status of critiques as opposed to how it was for her a while back. The varying views have already been raised in other threads as well as this one and I really don't want to waste my energy repeating what I've said before

I've learnt a few lessons to which I'm grateful to LBoy for. I just hope she's learnt a few too. Just a bit more sensitivity I guess. I have a thick skin but some others have felt discouraged and others may be discouraged by some of her remarks.

All in all LBoy has inadvertently or otherwise encouraged and inspired me to do better and better.

Watch this space!

Syd







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Old Apr 20, 2006, 1:57 PM   #45
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SteveDak wrote:
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vindolanda wrote:
Quote:
Now if thats what patrons want then fine. Do we than have to ask for a further page in Steves titled "Critique - (only photographic critique this time - I mean it!)" or will that page then be swamped also?
Great idea Vindolandabut I thinkkeep the Critiques page in tact since it has alreadysuch a rich history- lets ask rather for aless sombre page forwe Philistines to cavort around in, which we could call the 'Trash Heap'

Perhaps a Critiques/comments forum for the beginner and intemediary and a forum for the advanced photographer. In view of the opposing schools of thought on this matter and the two divided camps clashing, I think it is now well in order.

However, I think there should be unity in diversity too. Let's not loose that sense of being one big family.

Syd






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Old Apr 20, 2006, 1:59 PM   #46
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hey syd,

weired yuo "learnt" how t2 spel?

anyway, i have tried to avoid this whole ugly scene between a few of steve's forums

family members except for a few quips here and there trying to lighten the mood. i

just hate seeing my brothers and sisters fighting! i too have been critiqued rather

bluntly by LB, and though not as "tactfull" as her opinions on this thread toward your

post, it still stung a bit. i must say that your last post is quite encouraging, for i echo

the same sentiments.

my opinion is "what hurts us only makes us bitter and resentful and complete

monsters to live with but much better photographers!"


scot


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Old Apr 20, 2006, 2:46 PM   #47
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Over in "People", when asked why not post his pic here in critiques,

vindolanda wrote:
Quote:
Critique forum? Apart from one of two participants, you don't get any real critique over there anymore. Its good or its ok being the usual. Not a lot of help really.
I disagree!
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Old Apr 20, 2006, 3:53 PM   #48
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We could suppport another category, I suppose, maybe for the more informal photographer and have it include all subjects and and all kinds of shots. And have it critiqued too. But we already have that here. If "serious" photographers whose skills are advanced get bent and impatient with the newbs or fun seekers or casual shooters, let them respond by submitting more to add balance, and thereby raise the bar on average. That group can be as prolific as it needs to be to saturate this forum withposts of superior intrique. As I am fond of pointing out, we are indeed a fluid forum. Nothing static here. For those who want to parade their knowledge and skills and peacock their phd critiques, this forum can accomodate you, just don't be offended deeply if you're brought back to earth with the response. And be aware that of all the participants here, the number of members who do nothing but photography for their living...is practically zero! I am certain if we wait long enough everything will sort itself out, and the art of serious critique will be more evident.The good natured posts will never go away. The hobby we enjoy is totally interpretive when it comes to judging a lot of what we say is photo mastery, or junk. Much like some modern art in a way. Until there is an absolute formula to solve, it will stay that way. These debates help us arrive at a consensus, and should not be discouraged.

Kd
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Old Apr 21, 2006, 5:47 AM   #49
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Quote:
I had pm'd Craig enquiring about his non activity in Critiques. His view is one that I know is shared and felt by one or two others. We've discussed that 'till it's threadbare here relatively recently. Still he bounced back , and my opinion is that it was to give LBoy suuport in a shared view and perhaps assist in getting the forum back on the right track in his opinion. Who knows?.

Even Craig declared LBoy as a troll to be avoided not so long back, but obviously over time their relationship on here has developed beyond his initial feelings aired. Such is the way of things.


My responses were not because LBoy had given me a heavy critique. That, I welcome with open arms. I am a total novice in photography and here to learn as well as enjoy the light hearted banter. In fact who better (in Dustin's absence) could I aquire such knowledgable advice from than LBoy?

What I took offence to, was the way in which it was delivered. I do find sarcasm and arrogance rather ugly.

I think that I have also proved the point that a few others had been upset by her comments, or more the delivery (one to the extent of deciding to give up photography all together until Dustin's encouraging words). Besides, my feelings are that LBoy also wanted to make a point about the current status of critiques as opposed to how it was for her a while back. The varying views have already been raised in other threads as well as this one and I really don't want to waste my energy repeating what I've said before

I've learnt a few lessons to which I'm grateful to LBoy for. I just hope she's learnt a few too. Just a bit more sensitivity I guess. I have a thick skin but some others have felt discouraged and others may be discouraged by some of her remarks.

All in all LBoy has inadvertently or otherwise encouraged and inspired me to do better and better.

Watch this space!

Syd
Well sureI have a lot to learn too Syd.

Look forward to your future photographs.


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Old Apr 21, 2006, 8:16 AM   #50
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In search of Syd wrote:
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Over in "People", when asked why not post his pic here in critiques,

vindolanda wrote:
Quote:
Critique forum? Apart from one of two participants, you don't get any real critique over there anymore. Its good or its ok being the usual. Not a lot of help really.
I disagree!
This is an example of our forum being anything but static, and this is my point exactly. Over time, anyone who feels there is no point in posting, will leave. However, many discover that after their initial rant, they change their mind, swallow their pride, and dive right back in. We continue to evolve.

Kd
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