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Old Jun 24, 2005, 3:51 PM   #21
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356frog wrote:
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Mr. ISAPS GUY; I appreciate that you can come down to my level of thinking and experience. My camera is the older Power Shot G-2, 5 MP. I'm sure the new camera's have improvedbut this should suffiece till the experience level has increased.

I'm glad to see that the IP8500 might be a reasonable fit to my existing equipment.

Even with new inks and equipment coming out I don't necessarily need the lastest until I upgrade in the future.

Thanks to you guys there is something else to think about.



Bill

Actually the i960 has pictbridge as well as does well, just about everthing canon makes. This is not a feature of just their $300 printers. You can often spot these at a distance with the front USB ports. One of canon's strong points is they repackage old technology as new as seen with the i series which is good as consumables carry over for a long time, and many parts. The only reason I don't have one is for CD printing. I don't have a pictbridge camera but rather have a printer that accepts the printer's memory. Proof sheets are very handy.

In fact... one of the new printers on the market today that doesn't offer Pictbridge that I can think of is the Epson R800 IIRC, but the target market are people who want their prints to last and absolute age who will be editing in photoshop first. The R200 is another which well... they probally want you to spend the extra on the r300.

The old HP all in one, the 950, had a nice feature. You could print from your memory card and get hard copy proof sheet which you checked the box with a pencil which pictures you wanted, checked the box what size you wanted, and the printer would scan this and pop out what you wanted. I don't know if HP continued to employ this feature on newer models. This was esp useful to that first pc crowd making photos of their grandkids... well untill the local photo shop started offering 4*6s for 29cents. It was pretty easy, but not as easy as driving to the drug store and having someone else do it, and their printers are much better than consumer grade.

The main factor which wasn't even discussed at all is the intended size of photographs you wanted to print.


*but yes, I am cricital of someone who's purpose on a public discussion board is to sell printers, esp when people are looking for experences rather than the marketing jingles.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 4:33 PM   #22
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:idea: Philips owns the rights, patents and licensing to the cd/dvd printing capability. Which is not avaiable over here due to a licensing issue, however, there is a whole thread dedicated to making the US canon pixma models print cd/dvds. I've read and contributed to that thread and the users on here have made it work. The cd/dvd trays can be either made or purchased on e-bay. The software, downloaded and the drivers/registry changed in the printer/OS to make it work. Plus there is a web site, in which a US company imports the Canon UK printers from overseas and sends them here for us to purchase. They come w/a voltage adapter/plug to so no issue on that.
No the issue is people who want cd printing who are not aware of this site or UK models like my self 6 months ago would end up going to the store and buy the epson which at least for me has major issues all because canon doesn't want to shell out the cash to Philips.

And the e-bay trays are limited to lots of 10 as that's the limit you can order from service shops which as i know you've seen the market share can do the math and say it's not enough to keep with demand.

And if you actually read the threads would see my small contribution as well, which mainly was documenting the measurements on the epson tray, which would mean I'm already fully aware of these facts you took it upon your self to point out to me again. Presently working on the details on the MP series.

Yes the Euro models of the ip and the mp come with auto switching power supplies so as you said "there's no issue in that" (assuming that's what you were meaning, which wasn't the issue in the first place). The issue is Canon not wanting to pay a license fee to phillips.... which rumors say will change with July models. So as I said in the first place, go report in Canon and kick them in the butt to get this feature here. *That* is the resolution.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 4:43 PM   #23
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Bill - Great Camera, BTW. I have owned every Canon "G" series camera, except the G1 and the latest, G6. The "G" series, prosumer cameras have consistly been rated at the top of their class, in just about every following model(Even Steve thinksso!). You have a wonderful camera! I do agree with you; it all sounds good to me. Let me know when you get your printer. Feel free to send any questions or comments in the future (about your Canon printer if that's what you get).
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 4:53 PM   #24
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:roll: Yes this is true, Canon had the first available printer (in the US), with Pictbridge. This was the i560. Canon co-founded the technology, which is now an industry standard. I believe I did help Bill out (suprised I didn'd get blasted for that).
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 5:02 PM   #25
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:roll: Now who's making judgements about Epson's marketing strategies? Their R800 machines have a PictBridge port on them, and for people that don't have the need to print past 8.5"x11", and want to be professional, buy this unit. It is the same type of issue, like Canon and the Cd/dvd printing here in the US, their is a license fee to be paid for using Pictbridge. Just as there is a fee to pay Macintosh when "firewire" is used on a PC. I do not really know at this point, but a possible guess is that Epson didn't want to pay the licensing fee for PictBridge on their R1800. When using their papers and inks, a print is a print. Is someone is satisified with what their camera saw when reviewing the picture in the camera, I would think the image would have the same lightfastness weather is came directly from the camera or the printer. PictBridge does allow (as I have noted), a choice of 13"x19" at least when connected to the i9900 AND the newest HP large format (consumer model, can't recall the model number). I tried this in the store last week. HP's consumer large format evenhas memory card slots on it.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 5:05 PM   #26
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:? Bill - Thannk you again for your post. I was almost betting that, even though you had directed it towards me (and even addressed it towards me), that it wouldn't be left alone. That's okay though. I guess this is why we're all here; to have fun.
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Old Jun 24, 2005, 5:19 PM   #27
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:? Bill - Thannk you again for your post. I was almost betting that, even though you had directed it towards me (and even addressed it towards me), that it wouldn't be left alone. That's okay though. I guess this is why we're all here; to have fun.
Of corse not, had to point out that the older models had Pictbridge as well. (website doesn't say the r800 has pictbridge that I can see and I know the r1800 simply does not).

But no, the important thing that the salesman and the geek can play good cop and bad cop and somewhat agree on something. But this is not a contest, it's about people looking for information.

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Old Jun 25, 2005, 4:26 AM   #28
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:blah: My neighbor shoots with Canons, having the 20D and the Mark II 16.7MP professional digital SLR, uses the Canon i9900 for proof prints and usese their Image ProGraff (pigment base), for selling prints. Digital cameras read a larger color space than standard sRGB, which is called YCC. Canon printers, (their drivers and software), read this color space to more accurately produce the color range from what the camera sees, even past what typical computer monitors can display.
http://bubblejet.canon.com.my/exif3.htm

http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2005e.pdf
FYI: What you probally mean mean is the W9000 series. The W stands for wide. I saw someone who was confused on the "wide format" issue and thought of you. Yea canon calls them "large format" even though everyone else calls this Wide Format as Large format is a photography standard.

http://www.wide-format-printers.org/...jetprinter.htm

Unless your neighbor takes the imagePROGRAF(TM) (note lower case front, upper case rear and the tm at the end) 100ml+(BCI-1411-x w7200 IIRC) and puts them in his a3+ i9900 printer, what you're talking about is a $20,000 printer. It's easy to spot the difference, the i9900 might fit on a desk... the w9000 would make a nice desk. I've never seen one my self as well the HP design jet does a perfectly spiffy job for diagrams and I don't need a printer that takes 43inch media. I have seen the w7200, taking nice yard wide paper, very nice output. Here are some links to educate you on the differences.

http://www.canon.ca/pdf/7269A003_Specs.pdf
http://www.canon.co.nz/business/prod...story_835.html
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...p;modelid=9870

Is your neighbor's printer on a desk(I), or is it a desk(W)?

But needless to say these are professional units that cost more than most import cars. I hope in the future you don't get confused on this issue. It's not your fault that Canon thought it was a good idea to call their W series printers "Large"

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If anyone wants to visit my neighbors online store, or doesn't believe me that he shoots and prints with Canon and makes a living off of it, let me know. As far as the documents I put links for people to read, whoever doesn't believe Canon's claims on their technologies should put their money where their mouth is and sue them
The funny thing is, Canon doesn't make the same sorts of claims consumer division as their professional one. So you can't sue canon for it's lack of color accuracy on it's consumer grade printers. However salesmen who present a sub $500 consumer grade printer as being as good as a $20,000 printer that's another story.

I can't blame you for any inaccuracy in this matter, it's clearly ignorance and Canon marketing that confused you. Going by Canon's paperwork without having any background in printing beyond the consumer level it's so easy to confuse a W for a I like I almost did when I first went through your post. I have to admit, I have no use for owning anything beyond a monochrome plotter.
Rule of thumb... Sell things you know, have seen, or stuff you know the other guy knows jack about.
I could have let this go, and in many ways I probally should have, but given how so many people are confused by Canon model numbers, esp some of the printers in their pro graphics division (W stands for wide - makes it easy to remember). This site is read by people who's experence is vastly superior to mine, but some joe might come along and expect imagePROGRAF ink to come with their i9900, esp artists who'll get very annoyed.
Rule of thumb... Don't present some $500 consumer grade printer as a $20,000 pro wide format one!:G
To be perfectly 100% clear on the subject, their consumer grade inkjets, the i and ip series have issues with color accuracy, but because Canon are the leaders in image technology.... they must be doing something right. People like their brillent blues and periwinkle skies and purple pandas. Anyone with eyes can see this, even my color blind ones and boy am I colorblind. It's my hope since they are actually comming out with ink that might last longer than a a month or two without faiding that they would take it upon them selves being the experts of imaging they and actually offer purple pandas to the masses, and close to epson accuracy to people who want to keep it real. Some nice B&W support would be ok, but 3rd parties got that area covered pretty darn well.
Rule of Thumb: Don't use marketing speech from the pro departments on consumer grade products. Canon can deny all accountability and you stand on your own if someone holds you accountable for incorrect information. When cornered... pleed ignorance it's the best defence!:?
I hope we have learned something today. (I fits on your desk - W is a desk). If nothing else you can use me a story the next time you're trying to sell someone a printer. Perhaps it can go something like this "Everyone knows Canon is the leader in image technology, except this zakezuke guy. He claims the colors are wrong but he must be colorblind, in fact he says he is. I have this neighbor that has the w9000 printer and you can see his printouts if you don't believe me, they are just superb. If you want that sort of quality you don't have to pay $20,000 like he did you can buy this one over here for only 299.99."
Rule of thumb: Double check your specs before posting them.:|
I saw earlier you switched the horizontal and vertical resolution on the mp780 making it sound like it had an 11inch scan head. Not cool.

Hope we learned something.... and do have an inspirational day
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Old Jun 26, 2005, 9:10 AM   #29
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:roll: These are the models I was referring to, but before that if the "technology" document was read that I had referenced, Canon's professional grade commercial large-format machines DO use similiar patented technolgoies like on their consumer grades. When reading the document at the attached link, look for "Advanced Microfine Droplet Technology", look for "FINE" technology, look for a print head made the same on both the consumer grade and commerical grade to be similiarly made (Canon's semi-conductor process), look for "Advanced Color Distribution" technology, seperate ink tanks, all these themes or patented technolgies are employed on both the consumer line and the professional grade. They are more similiar than they are different.

http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2005e.pdf

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...;modelid=11264 (W6400)

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...;modelid=11258 (W8400)

Here is a reference to the price of these models, and they are NOT $20,000!

http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/4689/

"Canon's proprietary print head technology enables printing at 2400×1200 dpi (dots per inch) with four picoliter ink droplets. Canon's print head enables the W8400 to achieve print speeds up to 307 square feet per hour (sfph) at 1200×1200 dpi resolution.

The imagePROGRAF W8400 device is capable of printing on media up to 44 inches wide and has a manufacturers suggested retail price of US$ 5,995. The imagePROGRAF W6400 is capable of printing on media up to 24 inches wide and costs $3,495"

Last, go back to Canon's web site on these machines and read the information provided to see that their patented technologies do go over from consumer models to commerical models.
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Old Jun 26, 2005, 10:19 PM   #30
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iSAPS Guy wrote:
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:roll: These are the models I was referring to, but before that if the "technology" document was read that I had referenced, Canon's professional grade commercial large-format machines DO use similiar patented technolgoies like on their consumer grades. When reading the document at the attached link, look for "Advanced Microfine Droplet Technology", look for "FINE" technology, look for a print head made the same on both the consumer grade and commerical grade to be similiarly made (Canon's semi-conductor process), look for "Advanced Color Distribution" technology, seperate ink tanks, all these themes or patented technolgies are employed on both the consumer line and the professional grade. They are more similiar than they are different.

http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2005e.pdf

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...;modelid=11264 (W6400)

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/con...;modelid=11258 (W8400)

Here is a reference to the price of these models, and they are NOT $20,000!

http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/4689/

"Canon's proprietary print head technology enables printing at 2400×1200 dpi (dots per inch) with four picoliter ink droplets. Canon's print head enables the W8400 to achieve print speeds up to 307 square feet per hour (sfph) at 1200×1200 dpi resolution.

The imagePROGRAF W8400 device is capable of printing on media up to 44 inches wide and has a manufacturers suggested retail price of US$ 5,995. The imagePROGRAF W6400 is capable of printing on media up to 24 inches wide and costs $3,495"

Last, go back to Canon's web site on these machines and read the information provided to see that their patented technologies do go over from consumer models to commerical models.
Excelent... I see my little pnunomic helped... now we can easily remember the W models from the I models. Very good, you get a gold star. But if you remember you were revering to your neighbors 9000 series with imagePROGRAF ink and the page you stumbled upon doesn't list the 9000 series.
Rule of thumb: They get more expensive as they get bigger!
But respectfully you were the one that needed the education on the subject as you were prone to refer to these in casual marketing. I don't know what your neighbor has but unless she/he is taking a syringe putting them into a bci-3 sized tank... it's not the i9900. Copy and pasting the price list from the newer baby sisters of the w9000 series was somewhat a nice save, but you didn't actually include a price on the w9000... which well... is more. MUCH MORE! Almost a nice save, but the ball fumbled.
Acronym of the day: GIGO - Garbage in Garbage out. Provide bogus information you get bogus results. Remember I fits on a desk W is a desk.
It was much cooler when you were using acronyms such as "CMOS technology". Rather than "Canon's semi-conductor process". To your average joe (no offence), they are going to have no clue that CMOS means simply Complex Metal Oxide Semiconductor. Your averge PC user is just going to know editing the cmos what you do when you hit delete or other key upon startup. Sounds so much less foolish than, "I'm going to edit my Complex Metal Oxide Semiconductor". When you start refering to it as "Canon's semi-conductor process" people like me are going to wonder if older models were vacume tubes "Canon's vacume-tube process". I'd sugest going back to CMOS technology... it's an acronym, they sound cooler! More cool than "we use transisters".

Unfortunatly most of the data on FINE technology (Full-photolithography Inkjet Nozzle Engineering) {forgot the TM} it put out from the canon marketing department rather than their engineering department. Most of the literature sugests it's pretty to their PIXMA series or "consumer-oriented print heads" {COPH just to be cool}. Personaly I don't care if it's using FINE technology or GNOME technology (Little tiny beared men running with buckets to the inkwell and splashing them at the right spot). You "could" get away with telling me that these are used on their pro wide printers even though I've never seen that "FINE" label on them. I would sugest you look at your neighbors printer and see if it has a little "FINE" label on it before trying to tell people like me the pro printers use it.
Gold Star: Excelent use of "make sure you are selling things the other guy knows jack about".
You'll notice the use of the phrase "proprietary print head technology" and not FINE (TM) technology, and the 4pl drop size. I would think that canon doesn't yet has a cute acronym for the pro printers... and PPHT sounds too much like sticking your tounge out and I doubt it can be trademarked. But needless to say I have no clue what spiffy acronym the pro wides use. Absolutely none what so ever. If you say it's also a FINE - consumer-oriented print head technology... I can't argue with that.... I'll make sure to tell someone who spent $20,000 on commerical canon printer and tell him it uses consumer printhead technology... that would be cool. Heck.. I want GNOME technology... with their little red hats.


Now "AdvancedMicroFine Droplet Technology" (note the capital M F and italic Advanced) is rather hillarious. My experence with the bci-3e/bci-6 inks is limited but even if this technique is more preciece... the viscosity seems somewhat low. I've observed one aspect the consumer level printers (using FINE(tm) Advanced yadaa yadda) isn't so good at showing white text on a black background as others. I've also noted on non absorbent media the individual bubbles are more prone to smearing. Are you telling me that they made a choice of going with a preciece technique but picked an ink that is more prone to wick? If this is true... what does it matter if the ink is plopped in the right spot if it's going to flow to the wrong place? I'll have to see if I can resolve this with different inks... yes how dare I question the choice of the bellowing voice "the leaders of the industry who must be doing something right" . I guess I just don't know that this was the intended affect and I simply don't know any better.

Now here is an important question... have you actually seen any of these... have you used any of these.... have you looked at the output, same image side by side on any of these?
Gold Star: Use lots of meaningless acronyms to make a product sound more impressive.
Quote:
They are more similiar than they are different.
Sure other than the fact that they use different inks... and one is designed to hold there and abouts of a liter of ink and over 100ml per... where the consumer line... the consumer printhead... is rated for how many liters printed in it's entire life? 1/2 a liter?

Sure... one printer will give you a nice photoshop plug-in for direct printing helping color accuracy. The other gives you purple pandas and periwinkle skies. Is there a photoshop plug-in for the consumer printers?

Oh I understand... They both use plastic, metal.. MOS and CMOS, copper wires, tin plate finishing yadda yadda yadda.
Gold star: When trying to win an argument... flood with jibberish.
Quote:
Their R800 machines have a PictBridge port on them, and for people that don't have the need to print past 8.5"x11", and want to be professional, buy this unit.
What started this whole argument was a statement regarding the consumer line of Canons not being taken seriously because of the lack of color accuracy. Heck they don't have a a4 or a3 archival that i'm aware of. It's so very odd that you seem to agree with my statement, this is what i've observed as well. Pro wides... another story but hardly compairable to their consumer printers.

Your neighbor uses imagePROGRAF ink... great! I used sharpys on my plotter when the pens went dry. I've given suplus epson inktanks to high school art classes. This has nothing at all to do with *ANY* of their consumer inkjets which are all dye based. You said before that with the new bci-7 inks there is "no stopping canon now"... well except for that pesky color accuracy problem that even a color blind man can see, which is why people including your self say " people....(who) want to be professional, buy this unit (Epson R800)". Not that the canon i9900 isn't any good... i'd consider one if I needed an a3 printer... but color accuracy isn't one of them.

And lastly, with all due respect... I don't need to go back and read on these respective models. My pro wide needs can be met by professional print shops, as with MOST people in the market for consumer grade desktop printers. People like me actually understand the fundimentals of the technology being used and aquire this knowelege though actually using things and not by repating anything by the marketing department. You on the other hand who seem to be employed to sell everything from pp101d paper to printers that cost as much as cars. Not my job... your job.

But thanks to you I now I created a new acronym I can use at dinner parties. "My printer is better than yours because of PPHT". Now if I can only learn to pronounce that without spitting on people.



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