Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital Cameras (Point and Shoot) > Sanyo

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Dec 11, 2008, 7:53 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 118
Default

I have to say that we have all been duped with the cmos chip, unless its secure on a tripod or something nealry every video I see is wobbly, the cmos chip should be abandoned until they can solve this rolling shutter thing.

The thing is, its only just gathering momentum and people continue to pour good money after bad with all of the companies touting such cameras. Is this an atempt by the majors to completely distinguish the pro people from the ameteur's by providing such rubbish.

Wobble on xacti users and for now am sticking with the hd2, it may have its faults but in a few years time, I'll still be enjoying my clips, the wobble will of got the better of everybody else though.
Adventsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Dec 11, 2008, 10:22 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Helsinki, FINLAND
Posts: 157
Default

There is also lens flare or smear effect in CCD, but it doesn't seem to be so big problem compared to CMOS wobble, skew and similar motion problems. I doubt they will never turn back to CCD in consumer models because CMOS is cheaper to produce than CCD which is main reason for CMOS popularity among manufacturers. Rolling shutter problem could be avoided with global shutter, which how ever is too expensive to produce for consumer models. Sanyo has HD700 which has CCD sensor and I am really considering to buy it, but it doesn't have mic input which I might sometimes need, but I could also use external audio recorder and mix it together with some video editing program, which could be very tedious task, because video editing isn't my favourite thing to do, I prefer only watching those videos.
Quenaelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11, 2008, 4:10 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Rev2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 377
Default

Well, personally I think it depends on what you're filming. Most complaining about the wobble I've read is from people trying to film while inside cars. On the other hand though, I have seen videos shot from inside cars, including my own video with my HD1000, that doesn't show any wobble whatsoever.

Actually, I haven't seen CMOS wobble in any videos of mine. At least nothing that was glaringly apparently to make me take notice. There are so many videos online from CMOS based camera's that people look at without ever seeing a trace of CMOS wobble. Sure, under certain circumstances it's unavoidable... but as I said it likely depends mostly on what you will be shooting. For some it really matters a lot and for others it doesn't.

One thing is clear... technology is moving forward VERY rapidly. I'm sure within 2-3 years from now there will be no CMOSwobble problems anymore. However, there will always be some other "new" problem. And no technology will be perfect which is why there's always more than one available. Just look how we stillhave Plasma vs. LCD.



Rev.
Rev2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11, 2008, 6:53 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 224
Default

I have mainly used my HD1010 for hang gliding videos and have not noticed enough wobble to worry me in the least. Sure I would love a new 3CCD video camera but would prefer to spend the extra $500-1,000 it would cost me to buy one, on hang gliding extras, instead of the little bit of difference the new camera would give me.

Check out my videos to see for yourself.

http://www.vimeo.com/user530069/videos
relate2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12, 2008, 7:08 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 118
Default

I am just warning the unsuspecting and personally I think the camera manufacturers should not be allowed to promote such devices.

Be warned, all those buying consumer grade cmos based hybids/camcorders that cmos wobble is a very serious issue and unless you are happy to not be able to pan at anything more than absolutely slowly or are happy to invest in a steadicam/permanent tripod or stabiliser that these guys are seriously taking the mickey.
Adventsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 12, 2008, 7:16 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 118
Default

Just as an aside, I dont know if the progressive shooting is making things worse, its possible with i there are some advantages and the global shutter effect is somehow minimised, maybe for movement thos with the hd1000/10 should do some comparisons! certainly some of the sony's seem better at wobble and most of them use 1080i. (for the record) I have just taken a delivery of a canon sx1 with an is lense, which I was hoping would help with the wobble, in fact I have never seen anything like it and it was probably making it worse.

I evaluated an hd1000 in the shop on Saturday and again the wobble was very apparent, maybe as the shutter speed gets lowers it amplifys the effect further, hence you comments that you dont notice it. But in lower light, these things are unbearable.
Adventsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13, 2008, 12:26 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
subc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California, Sac area
Posts: 261
Default

I couldn't agree more with OP

Countless times I have written that we as videographers should stay away from CMOS chips for moving footage.

There are some excellent uses for CMOS chips:
- security cameras
- classroom / educational cameras
- webcams and teleconferencing
- extremely fast (and controlled) action where placing a $2k+ at risk of smashing it or breaking it is not an option, therefore a cheap CMOS HD camera could be used. Fast editing would help to mask the rolling shutter effect, so scenes would change before the viewer had a chance to say "hey hey hey! that panning motion made everything look slanted"

You got to give it to marketers... they were able to convince millions of people that the wooble on cmos cameras "it's ok" and appears due to the lack of expertise of the operator.

Stabilization or not, CMOS will make your footage look like carp. In fact, everytime I go to vimeo and see some footage from CMOS cameras, as soon as I notice rolling shutter, I just close the evil images.

In fact, even the almighty HV20 suffers from rolling shutter, and this is not a cheap camera from an unknown manufacturer!

Oh yes, you get glares on CCD chips... but that's nothing that can't be avoided with careful planning. To our eyes, glares are part of life and they are everywhere anyway.

If I see one more video of somebody walking with a cmos camera... I swear....

:evil:
subc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 13, 2008, 11:35 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,092
Default

Most of my Hybrids I played with use CMOS sensors, lower priced versions show wobble galore! When I purchased a aiptek, CMOS, it was bad to my eyes when it wobbled. It also had horrible mono sound. I really did'nt want to fork out for a hd1000 because of the CMOS. After playing with the HD1000 for a good3-4 months, I notice other problems but there is no wobble in mines.
Cresho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 14, 2008, 9:12 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Helsinki, FINLAND
Posts: 157
Default

There is situations from both chips that you can't prevent happening, you can't always prevent glare in CCD, or you can't always prevent skew in CMOS. Maybe there isn't so much appearing wobble in HD1000/10 videos because they doesn't have very good optical image stabilizer so CMOS wobble kind of mixes with actual hand shaking and looks more natural shaking. Expensive cameras doesn't always make this better:

Look how this guy has trouble filming with Sony SDR-S12, there is bad wobble and very bad focus hunt in low light: http://www.vimeo.com/1329068

Walking with CMOS camcorder isn't very good idea and any kind of shaking is bad to video picture, but CCD isn't affected so much with this kind of shaking. End of this video, guy is walking with Panasonic SD9: http://www.vimeo.com/2008546

Racing pictures are very hard to do with anykind of camera, as you can see there isn't any skew in CCD only shaking, but Aiptek Z600 has little wobbling, but Canon with good OIS excels in wobbling:
Racing with Panasonic SD9 (CCD + OIS): http://www.vimeo.com/1655661
Aiptek Z600 (CMOS) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJQUFkdmt8k
Canon HF100 (CMOS+OIS): http://www.vimeo.com/920276







Quenaelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 15, 2008, 1:14 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
subc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California, Sac area
Posts: 261
Default

Quote:
Look how this guy has trouble filming with Sony SDR-S12, there is bad wobble and very bad focus hunt in low light: http://www.vimeo.com/1329068
Excellent example of an individual that no matter what camera you give him, the result will be disaster... actually, that could be a good thing. This guy has the ability to show any camera at its worse.

If you want a real example of a walking video while holding a tiny CCD camera with one hand (Sanyo CG65), then have a look at the beginning of this video I took a while back.

http://vimeo.com/2249234

Rolling shutter ain't got nothing on me!!! haha :G
subc is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 7:18 PM.