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Old Sep 21, 2004, 4:18 PM   #31
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Thanks, SigmaSd9 for your clarifications! Lin, you accused me of not understanding the processes involved in digital photography, but I'm beginning to suspect that you don't either.
I really have nothing further to say about it. You will believe what you wish to believe regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As far as my understanding the "processes" involved in digital photography, I understand them both from the technical perspective (masters in physics) and from the practical perspective (over 40 years as a professional photographer).

I've been using digital cameras since 1986 and have hundreds of thousands of hours experience with "pixel level" algorithms. What has been proposed simply doesn't hold water in the real world no matter how much a few Sigma/Foveonfanciers would like to have you believe it does. I bought the first SD9 imported in my state and one of the first SD10's. I sold my SD9 to a good friend in Switzerland who still uses it and is one of the most ardent Sigma supporters on Phil Askey's forums. I'm thoroughly familiar with the arguments put forth about "color resolution" versus "black and white" resolution as well as what the cameras "can" and "can not" do.

I have over 30 digital cameras presently including the following dSLR's: Canon D30, 10D, 1D, 1D Mark II, 1Ds, Kodak DCS-760 and Kodak digital MF Back and Sigma SD10. If you would like to see pixel level samples of the differences I will be glad to post them, but since I've done so many times in the past, frankly I'm simply getting tired of countering the same line from zealots who haven't a clue aboutreal world photography and are living in a world of theoretical constructs which simply don't obtain.

If you wish to believe this fanatical hype and simply ignore the experience of "all major reviewers" who have shown conclusively that the SD9/SD10 have roughly the equivelent resolution of 6 megapixel bayer cameras then stick your head in the sand and continue to live in your fantasy world. Sorry, I simply have no more time to spend on this subject which has been thoroughly hashed and re-hashed on numerous forums.

This will be my last comment on this issue.



Lin


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Old Sep 22, 2004, 8:29 AM   #32
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I'm not interested in personal crudentials as much as resolution charts and sensor counts.

This is a really simple issue, really simple. The camera with the most sensors in a particular color band can see/resolve the most, period. A physics major should find that normal.

There are currently small marginal differences within classes (like DSLR's big sensors vs. P&S little sensors), but nothing significant. In fact, I found it quite surprising that the two technologies, so different on paper, actually relatively-performed exactly as one would expect in actual full color resolution test based on simple sensor counts. Foveon and Bayer are both extracting about the same overal bang per sensor. That is according to charts and photos, not someonespersonal optinions.

Several full color tests (and all the B&W tests shown) have already been linked that show exactly what evaluating at simple sensor counts predicts (amazingly, if you ask me). Additionally the good folks at Foveon say it too, with a very nice technical explanationhere: http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html

I don't think anyone would dispute that Carver Mead is the leading authority on digital imaging alive today, so how about we agree to accept his learned opinion, linked above? That is, the SD9 is a "6MP to 14MP" Bayer equivalent and leave it at that.


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Old Sep 22, 2004, 10:49 AM   #33
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http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=10357545
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Old Sep 22, 2004, 11:16 AM   #34
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I'm not interested in personal crudentials as much as resolution charts and sensor counts.
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I don't think anyone would dispute that Carver Mead is the leading authority on digital imaging alive today, so how about we agree to accept his learned opinion, linked above? That is, the SD9 is a "6MP to 14MP" Bayer equivalent and leave it at that.
You're having problems with your logic as usual - which is it????
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Old Sep 23, 2004, 5:31 AM   #35
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Yes, unfortunely most arelike you, and resort to personal attacks when proven wrong.

Bye for now. If you ever find any actual images to prove your wild theory that sensor count doesn't matter to full color resolution, I'd love to see them.
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Old Sep 23, 2004, 6:05 AM   #36
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Oh, one more parting thought for you to chew on... Have you noticed that differences in optical resolution is a moot point anyway? It is, you know.

A Point and Shoot camera with only 6M sensors is in fact labeled as "6MP," regardless of optical quality per output pixel compared to a DLSR with a bigger sensor that also has only 6M sensors. Do you accept both cameras being labeled identically with regard to MPs,a label based on sensor count alone?

Before you answer that interpolated-recorded output is all that matters, regardless of quality and resolution per output pixel, don't forget the SD9 and SD10also record 13.72MP images from their 10.3Moptical data point RAW files.

Point is, the SD9must be labeled as either 10.3MP or 13.72MP, since current standards force the issue. It doesn't matter what we think. The fact that the SD9 has 25% more RGB triplets than an "11MP" Canon 1Ds, coupled with 33% bigger pixels/sensors than the 1Ds, really doesn't matter a bit for labeling purposes.
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Old Sep 23, 2004, 3:16 PM   #37
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Yes, unfortunely most are like you, and resort to personal attacks when proven wrong.
You haven't proven anything except that you have a problem with consistency. First you say you are not interested in personal credentials then you end by using personal credentials as justification for belief.

Your track record about being right is highly problematical. You've been throughly thrashed on dPReview for your inablility to understand issues and your outlandish comments and now you've decided to bring this same lame argument toyet another forum.

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If you ever find any actual images to prove your wild theory that sensor count doesn't matter to full color resolution, I'd love to see them.


Please stop putting words in my mouth. Not once did I say sensor count doesn't matter and I've not once acknowledged your "full color resolution" theory. What I said is that your continual insistences on differences in what you call "full color resolution"are immaterial to the issues of camera performance in the real world.

Get this one thing straight if you can. The SD9/SD10 have approximately the real world resolution of a six megapixel bayer camera such as the Canon D60, 10D, Digital Rebel or Nikon D70, etc. Try to remember this for at least one moment: every major reviewer has aggreed that in real world photography the SD9/SD10 has approxomately the same reaolution as a six megapixel bayer camera - do I need to reapeat this yet again?? Do you really think that you know more about this than all the people who spend their time reviewing cameras for a living?? Forget resolution charts and look at real world examples if you can get your head out of the sand long enough.

Resolution is measurable. A camera doesn't have "between6 and 13 megapixel of resolution."A cameramay have 6 or it may have 13, but not both.To compare the SD9/SD10 with the 11 megapixel Canon 1DS or 14 megapixel Kodak SLR/n for resolutionand try to make a case you are attempting to make shows you simply have zero experience with these other instruments.

You've been at this under numerous "handles" for a long while and even the ardent supporters of the SD9/SD10 have warned and pleaded with you to stop. Here's a quote from one dPReview thread:



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I'm not usually a big defender of Bayer sensors, but they work better than your simple model admits. The double green really does act as twice as many luminance sensors. Only the chroma is undersampled. You've been on this kick for several years, many handles, and several bannings. Get off it. The Sigma does fine without your reality distortion field.
And yet another:

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Steve, I'm not sure which of us you're referring to here, but it gives me no comfort to know that you agree with me on this one point when so much of what you say is so obviously unsupportable. As early as March 07 2002, in a discussion in the news forum that you can find by searching for pixel definition foveon, Phil Askey, Ron Parr, and others supported the idea of Foveon counting all their pixels even though they were stacked up and even though the relationship to conventional Bayer pixels was not so simple. Your own arguments have always been about equating the SD9/SD10 resolution to 14 MP Bayer, which is nonsense with neither observational nor sound theoretical basis. Everyone knows it is wrong, so pushing this idea doesn't help Sigma's cause. A lot of people think the 10.2 MP rating is wrong, too, but at least there is a simple definitional and counting argument in support of it, simply counting all of the pixel sensors that are like what get counted in Bayer imagers. As far as trying to tie "quality" to pixel count, most people already know that's a losing battle, but there are correlations that can be discussed. As Foveon has promoted, their 10.2 MP sensor has a "luminance resolution" aspect of quality that's about like 6.8 MP Bayer, but also has other qualitiy aspects such as relative freedom from color moire, and higher chroma resoltion, that come about because it has more pixels than the 6.8 MP Bayer. It is folly to try to tie the 10.2 MP to just resolution, and double folly to do as you do and tie it to a number that's objectively wrong by an extra factor of two by ignoring the fact that Bayer sensors have a luminance resolution determined by their number of Green or Luma pixels. So get off it.
Please stop wasting my time and the bandwidth here with your zealous interpretation of what resolution is!

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Old Sep 24, 2004, 12:45 AM   #38
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There's no shortage of people who don't understand that color and black andf white tests produce different results, that's why Bayer camera manufactures love them. Not because they care about Foveon beating them up, but they want to bemuch more competitive when compared tofull color film. Its easy to find responses from people like you who take offense to becomingbetterinformed.

You are simply wrong, B&W tests do not test full color performance. In terms of color performance (all that matters unless you can find a black and white subject, which is not easy to do), Foveon is simply right and you are simply wrong. The SD9 is exactly on par witha 10.3MP Bayer, or in their words, the SD9 is comparable to a Bayer that is outstanding in the 6MP to 14MP class.

http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html

The proof is in the pudding:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/crop_10D_0000__0171_CR.jpg
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/crop2_sd9_0000_00200.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/canon10d_sigmasd9
http://photocenter.smugmug.com/gallery/147356

Now. I'm certain that you understand the issues at this point, being a physics student and all that knows more than Carver Mead's own words, quoted above, which agree with me entirely,but unfortunately you seem moreinterested in saving face that admitting that Foveon is right, and you didn't get it--yes, there is a difference between color resolution and 2 color B&W resolution.

Again, bye, do not reply to me in this or any other forum, your personal attacks are uninteresting. I like proof, you've posted nothing.



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Old Sep 24, 2004, 12:54 AM   #39
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And you never addressed the fact that optical resolution (no matter how far ahead theFoveon sensor is per optical-vs-interpolated-color pixel) is completely irrelevant to the current convention of listing an MP rating, asP&Ss vs DSLRs prove indisputably.

(Let's see if you have the self discipline not to resond to that either)
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 2:26 AM   #40
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Your arguments are total rubbish and you've been told that by countless people with much more experience than you have. You've been banned several times on dPReview yet you crawl back under yet another pseudonym and continue to spread your brand of illogical and specious arguments without any scientific or empirical basis.

If you want to continue to believe that the SD9/SD10 have equal resolution with the Canon 11 megapixel and 14 megapixel bayer cameras then you will continue to believe it, but please stop trying to make pseudo-scientific arguments about things you obviously don't understand and that includes both the bayerand Foveon process. You are simply spreading your confusion to people who really want factual answers.

I'm not in the least interested what you think about what I do or do not know. I have the empirical evidence which shows conclusively that the SD9/SD10 has approximately the same real world resolution as a six megapixel bayer camera and far less resolution than an 11 or 14 megapixel bayer camera. Find me "one" single informed reviewer who says otherwise.

Your silly arguments in the face of overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary are typical of what fanatical individuals with an agenda use to bring down the level of a forum and are what got you banned numerous times from dPReview. You're continual references to the same person "Carver Meade," and the sameirrelevant resolution charts simply demonstrate that you are obsessed with this issue and that there is absolutely no hope of you ever educating yourself beyond your fanatical beliefs.

Your "proof in the pudding" is proof of absolutely nothing having to do with the real world. If you believe you can make a living selling images of color resolution charts, the by all means please pursue your fantasy. I wish you luck and Godspeed. On the other hand if you had a clue about photography in the real world and a shred of experience with 11 or 14 megapixel bayer cameras you would realize that what you're saying is senseless.

Go get some real world experience and get out of your fantasy land obsession.

By the way - learn that there is no such thing as "full color film" - at least learn the proper terms if you wish to argue.

Do I really have to dig up links to all your silly arguments on other forums and post them so everyone can appreciate your intellect? That can definitely be done.

Lin

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