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Old Sep 24, 2004, 3:14 PM   #41
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Foveon: "The SD9 is delivering image resolution and sharpness that is outstanding in the DSLR category of 6 to 14 MP. "

Translation: The SD9 outresolves all 6MP DSLRs in all areas, and all DSLRs in some areas.

Your choice to ignorescientific test after test that indisputably proves their "claim" that 10.3MP is more than 6MP, only makes you look somewhat irrational.
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 3:32 PM   #42
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Thanks, SigmaSd9 for your clarifications! Lin, you accused me of not understanding the processes involved in digital photography, but I'm beginning to suspect that you don't either.
Your welcome. I think its pretty clear Lin has some hangups withthe Foveon sensor having 10.3M sensors, and/or lots of full color resolution tests which prove that sensors are useful. She seems emotional about it, maybe she's just having a badday or two.

The important thing to take away from this thread is that literally anything is extremely efficient at sensing no light. A piece of toast returns no signal when no light hit it, just as efficiently as a single green or red, or blue Bayer sensor. B&W tests are really of no value when comparing different kinds of full color digital cameras, although they can provide some limited information is the sensor type is held constant--Bayer v Bayer or Foveon v Foveon. However the useful results of such tests are normalized differently and thus exclusively relative in nature, so they are of no value whatsoever when crossing streams.
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 6:12 PM   #43
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I think its pretty clear Lin has some hangups with the Foveon sensor having 10.3M sensors, and/or lots of full color resolution tests which prove that sensors are useful. She seems emotional about it, maybe she's just having a bad day or two.
O.K., genius, "She" is a "he" with 40 years experience as a professional photographer and more experience in the scientific community than you will ever achieve (Ph.D. Physical Anthropology, MS Physics, three undergraduate degrees and years of teaching in major universities). Your "having a bad day" comments simply show your immaturity.

I have zero hangup with the Foveon sensor having 10.3M photosites. I have a large hangup with your irrational conclusions that because there are 10.3M photosites that the SD9/SD10 has the equivalent resolution of the 1DS Canon or SLR/n Kodak.
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Your choice to ignore scientific test after test that indisputably proves their "claim" that 10.3MP is more than 6MP, only makes you look somewhat irrational.
Your choice to ignore the vast quantity of empiric data showing that in real world photography the SD9/SD10 have resolution approximating a six megapixel bayer makes you look completely irrational.

If you had the 1DS or SLR/n AND the SD9 or SD10 you would have at least an opportunity to see for yourself how extremely wrong you are. You don't, so you place your faith blindly in Foveon's "tests" which are designed to help sell cameras. I do have both as well as numerous other six, and eight megapixel dSLR's to compare with.

"Tests" such as Foveon might conduct in the lab have little relevance in real photography. The real world isn't made up of specialized resolution charts made to test the Foveon sensor and bolster exaggerated claims of resolution.

Added to the problematic issues of stairstep aliasing due to file matrix size and no AA filter are the difficulties inherent in properly sensing color through a three layer arrangement of photosites. It's something Foveon is currently working on and the SD10 was a major improvement over the SD9, but my SD10 doesn't come within a mile of the resolution of my 1DS and has less measured as well as observed resolution than my 1D Mark II.

You do a major disservice to Foveon and Sigma when you continue to argue these ridiculous claims which have been dispelled in numerous side by side tests. The Foveon sensor produces the sharpest and cleanest pixel of any current dSLR camera, but pixel level sharpness and edge roll-off are not "resolution." Resolution is measurable and is the ability to detect and identify detail in the image. The Canon 1DS and Kodak SLR/n resolve detail in images which are totally missing from identical frames at compensated and identical focal lengths with the SD9/SD10. In addition the SD9/SD10 produce "false" detail which though helpful in certain circumstances such as landscape vegetation where the nature of the true detail lies below the threshold of human visual acuity, are distracting and useless in other types of photography. Bayer cameras smear unknowns while Foveon cameras create false detail with unknowns. Which is better is a subjective call.

The bottom line is that lab testing results which run counter to real world performance is simply bad science regardless of who is performing the test and their "qualifications." The ONLY think important to a photographer is real world performance and the Sigma SD9 and SD10 do not produce real world resolution performance anywhere close to eleven and fourteen megapixel bayer cameras.

No matter how many times you link to these "tests" or how many "charts" you use to bolster your case, the acid test is the real photograph. The evidence is clear - you are simply wrong.

Lin
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 7:54 PM   #44
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So Lin, if youhate Sigma/Foveon so pastionately, why don't you write to them and ask them why they say "the SD9 is delivering image resolution and sharpness that is outstanding in the DSLR category of 6 to 14 MP."

Why would they make a public statement like that if, as you claim, "everyobody knows" the 10.3MP SD9 can't do as well as only6M monochrome sensors?And what do you suppose Foveon does with all that optical full colorinformation? Are you saying the Sigma softwareintentionally ignores it? I hope not.
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 10:44 PM   #45
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Where do you dream up these scenarios? I don't "hate Sigma and Foveon." I don't hate any camera manufacturer. Actually I like the Foveon approach very much and would love to see them refine and improve it. I use Sigma like I use Canon, Nikon and Kodak, to do photography.

I use what works best for the task at hand whether that is my SD10, my Kodak digital back or one of my other five Canon dSLR's or my Kodak six megapixel DCS-760. I sincerely hope Foveon can produce a processor which can compete or dominate the higher resolution bayer process sensors used by the major manufacturers and when and if they do I'll buy it and use it for appropriate tasks. The SD9/SD10 is not a suitable replacement for higher resolution bayer cameras. Hopefully the next iteration of the Foveon will be exactly that but there are numerous engineering and design issues which must be solved before significantly higher true resolutions can be accomplished. I'm certain Sigma and Foveon are hard at work as we speak trying to make that happen. Meanwhile they must stay alive long enough to succeed and to do that takes a certain amount of marketing including typical marketing hype which all camera manufacturers do. All manufacturers play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Marketing by using phrases such as "between 6 and 14 megapixels" introduces both hope and confusion and gets people talking which leads to more sales.

Foveon has every right to market their processor as 10.3 megapixels since other manufactures use photosite counts to describe sensor resolution. However, there is more to resolution than simply photosite counts and it's not possible to directly compare a bayer processed sensor and a Foveon sensor by photosite count alone because the Foveon produces a much smaller file size array, but using 10.3 megapixels in advertising could help keep Foveon alive. Without Foveon Sigma would become like any other camera manufacturer or more likely revert back to primarily a lens manufacturer. The Sigma dSLR's would be accepted by a much larger segment of photographers were they available with alternative lens mounts, but Sigma's top executive is adverse to this idea. The sad truth is that unless they can market the SD10 to the advanced hobbyist as competitive with the lower end Canon or Nikon dSLR models, they will have difficulty being successful. Professionals using digital already have a significant investment in either Nikon or Canon lenses and Sigma simply doesn't have enough really top-end lenses to make the investment in a whole new lens system palatable. Professionals in general are hesitant to buy a whole new set of lenses with the SA mount when they have no assurance that Sigma will stay in the dSLR business. Even a moderate investment in a complete set of SA mount lenses would be nearly a total loss should Foveon go under and Sigma not produce another dSLR. Very few will purchase used SA mount lenses for Sigma 35mm film cameras - they simply have too small a market share.

So to keep Foveon healthy, Sigma must sell as many SD10's as possible or acquire Foveon and continue with R&D. To do this it's necessary to use marketing to maximize the SD10's position vis a vis other dSLR's. Now that Canon has moved to 8 megapixels with their D20, Nikon will likely follow suite with a replacement for the D100 and D70. To keep abreast of the competition without a new product, marketing must do all they can to induce people to buy the SD10 and that's what's happening.

Lin
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 3:09 AM   #46
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Lin Evans wrote:
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Where do you dream up these scenarios? I don't "hate Sigma and Foveon." I don't hate any camera manufacturer.
Then why fly off the handle when someone points out what Sigma/Foveon says? With lots oftests that back them up to the letter? Why personally attack anyone who correctlypoints out that Sigma sells a fabulous 10.3MP camera that performs exactly as one would expect from 10.3M sensors in full color test after test?That is all true, so sorry to be the one to inform you.

If anything should make you feel angry, it should be an $8000 bodywith only 2.75M full colorRGB triplets, 25% fewer than the SD9, relatively high noise due to small pixels,

http://www.pbase.com/dslr_noise/image/32014486/original

and the optical hit of needing strongerfull frame glass if you want similar full color optical resolution (in the center, anyway). Maybe it's because you are about to take a $5000 bath this weekend? You should thank Canon for thatwith your hateful posting style, not Sigma.
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 4:23 AM   #47
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Lin Evans wrote:
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Professionals in general are hesitant to buy a whole new set of lenses with the SA mount when they have no assurance that Sigma will stay in the dSLR business. Even a moderate investment in a complete set of SA mount lenses would be nearly a total loss should Foveon go under and Sigma not produce another dSLR. Very few will purchase used SA mount lenses for Sigma 35mm film cameras - they simply have too small a market share.
Sigma will rechip any of their SA mount lenses to any other mount for you, so all your concernis simply ignorance about one of the few remainingcamera companies still interested in personalized customer service.
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 8:59 AM   #48
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Sigma will rechip any of their SA mount lenses to any other mount for you, so all your concern is simply ignorance about one of the few remaining camera companies still interested in personalized customer service.


Let's see here. So a photographer has a complete duplicate set of lenses, sends all the sigma lenses to Sigma for them to change the mounts to whatever (of course that's free - right?) then sells the lenses to recoup the investment. Hmmm ..... Right!!

Quote:
Then why fly off the handle when someone points out what Sigma/Foveon says? With lots of tests that back them up to the letter? Why personally attack anyone who correctly points out that Sigma sells a fabulous 10.3MP camera that performs exactly as one would expect from 10.3M sensors in full color test after test? That is all true, so sorry to be the one to inform you.
I'm quite aware of what Sigma/Foveon says, and even more aware of the "facts". The SD9 and SD10 perform as one would expect from a six megapixel bayer camera, not as one would expect from a 10.3 mp bayer camera in "test after test". That's the whole point here. Don't inflate the performance to a level it doesn't achieve in real life photography! Don't raise the expectations of people who have not yet purchased the SD9/SD19 and falsely imply that these cameras will perform equally or better than an 11 or 14 megapixel bayer camera, they don't and that's been proven time after time regardless of what you, Sigma or Foveon may say.

Lin




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Old Sep 25, 2004, 2:38 PM   #49
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Lin Evans wrote:
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Sigma will rechip any of their SA mount lenses to any other mount for you, so all your concern is simply ignorance about one of the few remaining camera companies still interested in personalized customer service.
Quote:

Let's see here. So a photographer has a complete duplicate set of lenses, sends all the sigma lenses to Sigma for them to change the mounts to whatever (of course that's free - right?) then sells the lenses to recoup the investment. Hmmm ..... Right!!
Why in the world would you also buy Canon lenses for an SD9? You don't need duplicates to rechip, that's the whole point of a nominal cost service from Sigma. It costs about $50, not a big deal considering their average pro lens runs about $1500 and the lenses generally cost a little less upfront in the SA mount. You probably even save a few bucks doing it this way if you decide to buy an interpolated camera later.
Quote:
Then why fly off the handle when someone points out what Sigma/Foveon says? With lots of tests that back them up to the letter? Why personally attack anyone who correctly points out that Sigma sells a fabulous 10.3MP camera that performs exactly as one would expect from 10.3M sensors in full color test after test? That is all true, so sorry to be the one to inform you.
Quote:
I'm quite aware of what Sigma/Foveon says, and even more aware of the "facts". The SD9 and SD10 perform as one would expect from a six megapixel bayer camera, not as one would expect from a 10.3 mp bayer camera in "test after test". That's the whole point here. Don't inflate the performance to a level it doesn't achieve in real life photography! Don't raise the expectations of people who have not yet purchased the SD9/SD19 and falsely imply that these cameras will perform equally or better than an 11 or 14 megapixel bayer camera, they don't and that's been proven time after time regardless of what you, Sigma or Foveon may say.

Lin
Ah, so you do have pre-existing emotional problemswith Sigma and Foveon. It wouldn't have anything to do with your $8000 interpolated 1Ds's value dropping by about 80% this weekend alone, would it?

Here is the 1Ds vs the SD9, this color test was done bya neutral third party:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/crop_1ds_0000_1328_C1.jpg
http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/crop2_sd9_0000_00200.jpg

If the SD9 can't compete with a 6MP Bayer, the 1Ds must reallyhave problems.
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 3:07 PM   #50
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O.K., you can't seem to get off the "emotional" kick. You may ask anyone who knows me, I'm about the least "emotional" person you are likely to ever meet.

I have no "emotional" problems with anyone or anything and I could care less about the "value" of my equipment. Do you really think I would have over 30 digicams if I cared about their monitary value? Get real! I believe I've only sold two or perhaps three digital cameras in my life and that was simply because they didn't suit the task I had purchased them for.

Each of my professional cameras have paid for themselves many times over including my first six megapixel digital Kodak DCS-460 camera which I purchased for a little over $30,000 in late 1995. Outside of a desire to see Foveon succeed because I believe they have potential, I could care less about anything other than performance. If a better performing camera comes on the market and has the features which work for my business and I need it, I'll buy it, and with no interest inreselling and no interest in its "value" in a couple years. Electronic camera equipment has a service life of around two years before the technology curve makes it obsolete.This is not to say that I enjoy "wasting" money which would be what would happen shouldFoveon fail and Sigma stop making digital cameras and if I had invested a bundle in SA lensSigma glass. I useSigma lenses with nearly all mydSLR's but I won't invest heavily in SA mount lenses for my SD10. If and whena Canon or Nikon mount SD camera is releasedI'll probably buy it, but unless that happens I'll simply use my SD10 with the few lenses I have and be very happy with it.

Quote:
Here is the 1Ds vs the SD9, this color test was done by a neutral third party:
How many times are you going to show links to the same meaningless charts?

Lin

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