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Old Sep 28, 2004, 2:13 AM   #61
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I have been listening to these arguments and counter arguments for some time. Clearly everyone here has impassioned views and everyone has the right to share their opinions. That said...this is a Sigma forum. It is probably best served by folks who love the Sigma cameras and their capabilities.
Indeed it is a Sigma forum, and everyone here does love Sigma cameras and their capabilities, but that doesn't mean we need to wildly overstate their capabilities to the pont that we look foolish to others who also read these threads. Sigma SD9/SD10 cameras do just fine without making wild claims which are totally unsubstantiated in real world photography regardless of specialized "tests" which show difference between the two technologies. In the real world we simply don't shoot images of red lines on a blue backdrop, etc., the real world isfull of myriad color combinations including black and white.

Every major professional review of the SD9/SD10 has agreed that their performance is excellent and that they provide similar real world resolution to six megapixel bayer cameras but with much sharper pixel level detail. That finding mirrors exactly the findings of those of us who use multiple dSLR's including the SD's. The only major down sides have been problems with long exposures (noise), a few strange colors such as neon skieswith the earlier conversion algorithms and stairstep aliasing in angles other than 180, 90 or 45 degrees. Most of these issues except the aliasing have been resolved with the SD10 and latest software and we should be justly proud of what Sigma and Foveon have done. The stairstep aliasing is the result of the less than four megapixel file matrix and no antialiasing filter, a situation which can't be avoided but is tolerated in compromise for the other great benefits of pixel level clarity, short edge roll-off, etc., making the SD images some of the sharpest and cleanest available.

This thread started simply because an enthusiastic reader posted some samples from Steve's images of the SD10 and 14 megapixel SLR/n to bolster his theory that the SD had equivalent or better resolution. Any experienced photographer would have immediately recognized these were in no way comparable shots because the SLR/n image was taken at a much greater distance and much wider angle of view. Because of the 1.7x factor with the SD, the images as Steve shot them for both the SD9 and SD10 are closer than with any of the other SLR's so it makes drawing any meaningful conclusions from direct comparisons impossible.

Rather than arguing ceaselessy about "tests" what we should be doing is putting up great shotsfrom our cameras and letting the images speak for themselves. I'll be glad to start with one of my first SD9 test shots - a tiny aspen leaf about 3/4 inch in length with oodles of detail and a link to the full sized image:



Link to full sized image below:

http://www.lin-evans.com/sigma/aspenleaflarge.jpg
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Old Sep 28, 2004, 5:12 PM   #62
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Lin wrote:

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In the real world we simply don't shoot images of red lines on a blue backdrop, etc., the real world is full of myriad color combinations including black and white.
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What I do I zoom in and check if the image looks like it's real life. Like if you hear the news report on your expensive stereo, and imagine a real human sitting right before you? That's it, and no standardised tests in the world is going change the preferences of a camera once it passes this one.

The last was in response to you mentioning standard resolution tests. Read the 'header' of this thread. Seems to me we're gravitating towards som kind of common understanding in the end, doesn't it?



Another thing. If my memory serves me well, Foveon announcedplans for a 16 Mp X3 sensor back in 00 or 01. They also stated their intentions was to replace film based snappers. I reallly hope they stick to that plan, and deliver soon. :love:
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Old Sep 29, 2004, 3:32 AM   #63
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Lin Evans wrote:
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Indeed it is a Sigma forum, and everyone here does love Sigma cameras and their capabilities, but that doesn't mean we need to wildly overstate their capabilities to the pont that we look foolish to others who also read these threads. Sigma SD9/SD10 cameras do just fine without making wild claims which are totally unsubstantiated in real world photography
Hate to be the one to tell you, Lin, but Sigma also claims 10.2MP. Foveon does too. These are not "wild and unsubstantiated" claims. Except to those who don't understand the difference between full color optical resolution and the number of interpolated recorded pixels--which is no doubt the vast majority of both buyers and pro reviewers.

http://www.sigma-photo.com/
http://www.foveon.com/prod_f7.html


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Old Sep 29, 2004, 4:29 AM   #64
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Lin Evans wrote:
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Rather than arguing ceaselessy about "tests" what we should be doing is putting up great shotsfrom our cameras and letting the images speak for themselves. I'll be glad to start with one of my first SD9 test shots - a tiny aspen leaf about 3/4 inch in length with oodles of detail and a link to the full sized image:



Link to full sized image below:

http://www.lin-evans.com/sigma/aspenleaflarge.jpg


No offense Lin, but that image has a level of artifacting I've never seen from a Sigma camera. Perhaps it was way oversharpened for slight focus or motion blur problems?

How about one from today:



Original: http://www.smugmug.com/photos/9165338-O.jpg

(Photoshop'ed to deliver a more acceptable portraitverall 0.3 gausian blur, selective blur and clones to reducelots of unflattering detail,vignette)



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Old Sep 29, 2004, 1:55 PM   #65
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Go to the full sized image and point out an artifact. That's a very vague term unless you refer to stairstep aliasing which is normal for the SD9.

Even in a portrait, it's nice to get sufficient depth of field to get both the dog's eye and nose in focus simultaneously unless your only interest was a portrait of the eye :-)

Lin
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Old Sep 29, 2004, 5:17 PM   #66
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Lin, i'm getting bored with you. Check this out if you don't recognise artifacts:




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Old Sep 29, 2004, 5:46 PM   #67
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SigmaSd9, this is what your dog is looking at:


What kind of camera is that ?? Looks like a video camera to me. Maybe one with 3 ccd's and a beam splitter ?? :G
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Old Sep 29, 2004, 5:48 PM   #68
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Lin, i'm getting bored with you. Check this out if you don't recognise artifacts:

Being "bored" is a personal problem - go somewhere else if you're bored.

Thanks, but I don't need your help recognizing artifacts and the response wasn't for you.

Lin
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Old Sep 29, 2004, 6:02 PM   #69
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Tsk, tsk ... :lol:
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Old Sep 30, 2004, 12:09 AM   #70
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Lin,

I can't believe you are still at this with these guys. I saw your first posts a few days ago and figured you would have given up long ago. I have known you for a long time and have learned a lot from all of the help you have provided. I would guess the vast majority of the long time people on digital photo forums appreciate your wisdom. But with this thread I am really reminded of the movie City Slickers. I cast you in the roll of Billy Crystal trying to explain how to record a movie on a VCR. I think most of us get what you are saying and understand your posts. The cows even get it :idea:but those who attend the Sigma Church will just believe what they want to believe.

The Foveon Technology is very cool and really remarkable for what it can do. It stands up great with current crop of 6MP DSLRs. I love the fact that they are calling you a anti-Foveon. You have made some strong positives statements on the technology for quite some time. Actually it was your defense of the SD9 on DPReview that made me take another look at the technology.

Good luck. By the way SigmaSD9 & code I won't be checking back on this thread. Flame me away. I have better things to do.

Ed
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