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-   -   SONY DSC P-12 (https://forums.steves-digicams.com/sony-34/sony-dsc-p-12-a-21293/)

ajan Mar 1, 2004 6:43 AM

SONY DSC P-12
 
I am sory about my English...
I have Sony P-12 and I have problem with fast moving objects. It's captured with "shadow". The shotter is slow (1/60). The result is pretty same even if I set Continues AF. Some pictures looks good but not always. What's the problem?
All setings are on AUTO.

Marek Mar 2, 2004 3:59 PM

moving objects will always with shadow(blurred) when the shutter speed is too slow.
e.g. all my motocross photos are like this one:
http://deepblue.borec.cz/moto.jpg
camera uses flash becouse of low light under the trees, time 1/40 auto and this is the result.On auto camera u can do nothing with it.

ajan Mar 3, 2004 2:40 AM

OK, thanks but...
Can I fix some seting on PROG mode and when I have to capture fast (not race, just kids jumping) object just switch to P-mode?
I tryed to set on P-mode (spor) but LCD goes OFF and I do not see until I 1-press button to turn on AF-lamp. And I need to use flash or picture is complete black.

Marek Mar 5, 2004 11:37 AM

Quote:

but LCD goes OFF and I do not see until I 1-press button to turn on AF-lamp.
I dont understand this.P12 has a direct AF-lamp button? Im sure not.Its auto camera so u can do nothing with it, except setting sport mode.or set EV to - (but then pictures will be darker,but shutter speed faster)

ajan Mar 5, 2004 3:59 PM

Quote:

I dont understand this.P12 has a direct AF-lamp button? Im sure not.
I am sorry.
P12 has not a direct AF-lamp button, but when I am in SPORT mode and indor, LCD goes OFF and I have to halfpress button to turn it ON for about 2 sec and then he goes OFF again.
I just do not understand whay LDC turns OFF when in SPORT mode.
I have to use viewfinder or several times halfpress button to turn on LCD for a 2 sec.

Marek Mar 5, 2004 6:43 PM

In other mods -prog, snow, beach, night its OK?LCD turns off only in sport mode?thats strange.Because LCD on my camera turns off, when in setup POWER SAVE is ON.Then LCD turns off while charging flash.U have to half press shutter button to turn lcd on?Maybe its should be this way.Its a feature of camera.Maybe is related to the fact that in sport mode u are capturing fast object and camera wants that u use only optical viewfinder,.... or..... i dont know. :roll:
Post some pictures that are blurred and were taken in auto mode(but resize it to 800*600, last think I want do is downloading 2MB pics using 56k, save them with exif or write shutter time to them .I want see what are u talkin about)

tesna Mar 6, 2004 7:59 AM

My camera is sony dsc-p10 model. The lcd is not off when the program set to sports mode. Are you trying to shoot in low light conditions? As far as I know, the picture in the lcd just become dark because of high shutter speed in under low light conditions. When you half press the shutter, the shutter refresh rate become slower to make the image brighter a little bit to adjust the focus. After the focus is set, the shutter speed is back to high speed mode and when the shutter button fully pressed the camera captures it. I suggests to always use flash under low light conditions, and if possible, always shoot in outdoor and sunny condition.

ajan Mar 6, 2004 9:28 AM

Quote:

Are you trying to shoot in low light conditions?
Hi, tesna
Yes. That is the case. I use SPORT mode indoor for pictures of my kids when they jumping and etc....
When I'm outdoor LCD shows good pictures but indoors LCD is almost black. When I halfpress button I hear "click" and then LCD shows the pictures for 2 sec and then he goes bleck again.
I think you explain good that.

Quote:

Maybe is related to the fact that in sport mode u are capturing fast object and camera wants that u use only optical viewfinder
Hi, Marek
And I have POWER SAVE ON and LCD turns off while charging flash.
But I do not think that is the case whay in SPORT mode LCD goes black. Explanation of "tesna" is OK even I do not see whay I should I use optical viewfinder for fast object. Fasr object is not just SPORT. My kids indoor when I pictures them are also fast object. And when I use auto mode I have blury (with shadow) pictures.
I work about to send some pictures.

Quote:

In other mods -prog, snow, beach, night its OK?LCD turns off only in sport mode?thats strange.
Yes that is right.
Outdoor LCD is OK, but indoor with lights ON LCD is almost black. LCD is not turns OFF and I can see on my LCD some very "black" movements.

Marek Mar 6, 2004 4:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tesna
My camera is sony dsc-p10 model. The lcd is not off when the program set to sports mode. Are you trying to shoot in low light conditions? As far as I know, the picture in the lcd just become dark because of high shutter speed in under low light conditions. When you half press the shutter, the shutter refresh rate become slower to make the image brighter a little bit to adjust the focus. After the focus is set, the shutter speed is back to high speed mode and when the shutter button fully pressed the camera captures it. I suggests to always use flash under low light conditions, and if possible, always shoot in outdoor and sunny condition.

yes, thats it.Tesna is right.Can u tell me what is the shutter speed difference between auto and sport mode.Try it outside an tell me what time camera sets with auto mode a what time with sport mod in same conditions.Do sport mode affect flash mode too?Or its always 1/40?
Optical viewfinder was only a idea, bad idea.And I have never use it for taking pictures, cos its impossible ...its too small.

And u know what i dont like ?This sony Pseries cameras always choose only between lowest an highest Aperture value.Olympus use full Aperture range.Its problem when ist cloudy and u use 3x zoom.Sometimes camera is choosing a very long shutter s.-1/80 and F10 Aperture and shows shake warning instead using lower Aperture and faster time.

ajan Mar 6, 2004 6:27 PM

Hi, this is one test picture. She is moving hand and I take a shot. And look what I've got. It is not like this every shot. Sometime camera take nice shot and stops the "action", but...
Now is night and I can not make a test you tell me but I will do that tomorow. Then I will post again.

http://www.ajanovic.s4u.org/blury1.jpg

tesna Mar 7, 2004 4:38 AM

Hi ajan,
are you using flash in that shot? I've just experimenting to shoot in indoor in sports mode and normal mode with and without flash. The object is my own hands and I shake my hands fast then I shoot it (I cant think any other object at that time). The result: both sports and normal mode can capture my hands very well using flash, the difference I saw from the exif info is the shutter speed. In the normal mode the shutter speed is set to 1/40 sec, and in the sports mode is 1/250 sec. Then, in no flash mode at sports mode I get blank/black image, whereas in the normal mode I get blurry hand.

Marek Mar 7, 2004 6:00 AM

So the flash time in sport mode is 1/250?Picture must be very dark,no?

tesna Mar 7, 2004 8:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marek
So the flash time in sport mode is 1/250?Picture must be very dark,no?

Nope, the picture was good enough/fine.

ajan Mar 7, 2004 3:53 PM

Hi,
Look at this picture.
"http://ajanovic.s4u.org/bloor2.jpg" (You have to copy/paste the adress in your browser.)
It is AUTO mode, with FLASH ON, 1/40, F2.8, ISO 160, Metering mode: Multy, WB: Auto.
I do not think it is goot.
When I you SPORT mode AND FLASH ON then I got goot pict. But I can not use the LCD indoor with SPORT MODE and that is the basic problem.
And I got black picture when I take a shot in SPORT mode without FLASH, and it is 1/250 shotter.

Marek Mar 8, 2004 4:24 PM

I tried to set focus to 1/250 F2.8 using spotmetering and with flash on, then I took a indoor picture.It seems even 1/250 is quite enough for camera to highlight and capture the scene.
Overall flash mode isnt for action shots.U cant take sharp image of moving child with 1/40s.I took many indoor people pictures and they were almost all sharp, but admitedlly I didnt take pictures of jumping child.With flash mode u have to say dont move,say cheese and then u take picture.So sport mode is only possibility for you.

ajan Mar 8, 2004 5:21 PM

OK, thank you for everything.
Thanks to tesna also.
Just one more question.
If you could buy (again) Canon A80 or SONY P-12, witch would be your choice now?

tesna Mar 9, 2004 3:24 AM

My opinion, I dont like the design of canon A80. Seems bulky to me, but I dont know about the picture quality, since I never use canon cameras.

Marek Mar 9, 2004 12:31 PM

My choice now would be minolta F200(it was too expensive when I bought P72).And A80 is better then p12, has full manual exposure ,better flash pictures(sonys are oversaturated).

skuba Mar 9, 2004 6:40 PM

Couldn't he just set camera to less exposure, but faster shutter?

ajan Mar 10, 2004 1:35 AM

Sony P8, P10, P12 have NOT any manual control. It has just some predefines SCN and that is everything you can make.

skuba Mar 10, 2004 11:47 AM

As far as I know you can change Exposure -2EV to +2EV and Aperture F2.8 - F5.6 .
And you can also choose 4 or 5 focus ranges.
Am I wrong?

ajan Mar 11, 2004 3:11 PM

Yes. That is right, but you can not change shotter speed, and that is most important for me.

skuba Mar 11, 2004 3:41 PM

Bu the SCN have already pr eprogramed different shutter speeds. I mean, as far as I know what each one means.
I am not a professional photographer, I don't need a hi-end professional cam. I am looking for a hi-end consumer cam.

ajan Mar 12, 2004 1:52 PM

Yes. You can set fast object (SPORT mode) and that is 1/250 shotter, night, night portret, landscape, and all of them use predef/auto shotter speed. You can do nothing about that. But if you want to use SPORT mode indoor that you can not use LCD because it is too black because of shotter speed (1/250) and you have to use optical viewfinder. Another problem I found when I use optical finder (OF) is: When I zoom in view does not match "OF" and LCD. "OF" take pict about 0,5m turn to left.
If someone can try on because I need to know if it is on my P12 or it is general error.

About professional photographer. That's me. Now, my choice would be Canon A-70 (3MP), or A80 (4MP).

efe85 Mar 19, 2004 1:22 PM

Following the topic a bit late but;
As far as I know; there is 1/2000 shutter speed at max...it says so in the ad's ... Is this not true; is sony lying??? :?

ajan Mar 21, 2004 4:49 PM

No, generaly, Sony is not lying, BUT...
In most indoor situation it set max 1/50. And if you use zoom than it is even lower (1/8).
You can get over 1/1000 only if you point on the sun. And that is not what makes me hapy.
So, buy a CANON.
I have P-12 and I am not satisfied.

efe85 Mar 22, 2004 10:09 AM

Thanks for the answer;now I'm one more step closer to making my decision: Whether I buy a Canon or a Sony.
I've heard from everybody that quality of pics taken with a canon are better than sony's, plus you have manual controls which you dont have with sony. BUT; Canon ( A80 for example) is much bulkier than a Sony (p-10 or 12) and it does not have the "continuous movie mode" which sony has... Now can you help me with that??? :)

Note: I'm not a professional photographer , maybe I wont use many manual controls; but ı will use the cam for 4-5 years which makes me want to buy the best one in p-10, a-80 price range.

ajan Mar 23, 2004 11:51 AM

OK. If you look this picture then you will see what I talkin about.
http://www.ajanovic.0catch.com/test1.jpg
http://www.ajanovic.0catch.com/test2.jpg
http://www.ajanovic.0catch.com/test3.jpg

It is not allways like this. If you have still object than pictures are great.

skuba Mar 23, 2004 12:01 PM

Can't see the links

efe85 Mar 23, 2004 1:18 PM

is there any other way we could look at the pictures ajan?
The links do not work I suppose.
So you say the only problem with sony is the fast objects,and indoor shots; there is no any other problem??

ajan Mar 23, 2004 2:40 PM

Yes. Fast object are the only problem FOR ME. You can use SPORT mode for fast object but outdoor when the light is well. And not all the time.
The other is OK for me . And, the color is not very well interprieted (to much yellow) but it is not big problem for me.
Try this link
http://www.ajanovic.s4u.org/test.html
http://www.ajanovic.s4u.org/test2.html
http://www.ajanovic.s4u.org/test3.html

If it does not work try copy/paste adress of these links in your browser. That will work.
Do not think that is quality of the pictures. It is compresed to HI JPEG. But I talk about blur of pictures.
So please comment...

skuba Mar 23, 2004 3:25 PM

Did you shoot using the sport program with the fast shutter?
Did you try to focus the kids first?

ajan Mar 23, 2004 4:25 PM

Yes, I was tryed, but pic is too dark. Look at this:

www.ajanovic.s4u.org/test4.html
or copy/paste in browser
www.ajanovic.s4u.org/test4.JPG


test1, test2 have setings:
ISO 100, F2.8, 1/80 sec.
test 3 have
ISO 100, F2.8, 1/40 sec.

Does prefokus do something better. I press ones to the end and wait to cammera fokus it and get pic.

efe85 Mar 24, 2004 4:17 PM

did you use the flash in test4?
If you did and this is the result; then ı have nothing else to say...
It really is too dark.What was the time the pic is taken? (morning,noon,afternoon?)
There is one thing ı dont know and that is iso. What does iso do ; can anyone tell? Would changing the iso make any difference in test 4 ?
I personally believe that in fast shutter speeds, camera needs lots of light;and if there isnt, then there's nothing the camera can do,whether it's a sony or a canon or a kodak...Am I wrong??

ajan Mar 25, 2004 5:37 PM

It is without flash, but it was taken about 17,00. It was still a day.
Even if I use flash it is to far for flash to catch.
ISO ? I do not know.

Marek Mar 26, 2004 2:43 PM

Quote:

ISO ? I do not know
see exif info of that picture, picture ISO is in.

2 efe85: ISO means sensitivity of CCD.Difference betwen iso 100 and 200 is such difference in sensitivity that can be compensate by one F number or half/twice s. speed.

F.e.:

ISO100 + F5,6 + 1/30s = ISO200 + F5,6 + 1/60s=ISO100+ F4 +1/60s = ISO 100 + F2,8 +1/120s= ISO400 +F5,6 + 1/120s......

But higher ISO produces much more Digital noise, especially this P series , ISO 400 is useless :evil:

efe85 Mar 29, 2004 11:28 AM

thanks Marek for the answer.
Most probably ı will go for the canon a 80.
by the way ; is there anybody who knows why there isn't any canon ixus reviews here at steve's??

Marek Mar 30, 2004 2:07 PM

They are here, but IXUS trede name for U.S. market is PowerShot S XXX(400,300....).

Marek.


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