Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital SLR and Interchangeable Lens Cameras > Sony Alpha dSLR / Konica Minolta dSLR, Sony SLT

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Sep 29, 2006, 7:12 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
meanstreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,234
Default

andychen wrote:
Quote:
We don't have this kind of offer here in Canada (7d for599.00)

Nevertheless i hope Sony is preparing with Minolta ingeneers

aworthy replacement for the 7d.

During my waiting i'll try to find at a good pricea good prime

for interior shooting.

For what it is worth Popular Photography and Imaging named

the Sony alpha a100 the camera of the year at Photokina.



Andy
I think the Alpha deservesmore credit than it's early reviews. In fact, when it first came out, I was too quick to knock it because like most existing KM owners I was a little disapointed by lack of 3200 ISO and the noise isssues. After thinking about it, I realized that I rarely use 3200 ISO and it is really just an artificail ISO boost anyway. I have only used it on the KMs in extreme cases where I had to have shot and could tolerate the noise or filter it and add special effects to enhance the photos or create surreal backgrounds. BTW it has been stated that the Alpha's ISO settings are actually higher or truer to the actual ISO rating and that is also one of the reasons people have reported higher noise when comparing ISO speed results.

Honestly,I don't think the Alpha is a good choice for everyone, but it has potential if you are willing to work with it in terms of using the right settings or willing to put some effort by post processing. I don't think it is a good camera for those who want instant gratification or want to use it like a Point and Shoot until they master photography. My perspective is that the Alphaforces you to be more of a photgrapher/digital developerand not just someone who can just frame and shoot.

I also feel the Alphacompliments the KM 5D or 7D quite well if you already have one. As someone else put it in perspective to me recently when I expressed the desire to add an Alpha to my collection... the KMs can be used when you really need high ISO and the Sony can compliment that when high ISO is not required andyou can take advantage of the Sony's high resolution capabilites. Of course not everyonewants, needs, or can afford multiple cameras.

meanstreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 29, 2006, 2:40 PM   #12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 18
Default



that's what i'm doing: High iso and interior with the 5d and 50mm f1.7

and the exterior for sharp immediate results Canon a 80 (called sometimes

the little g3) or Canon S2 (not as sharp) if ineed tele. But i'm lucky to have also the

beercanthat's very sharp also.



ANDY
andychen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 5, 2006, 12:43 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
BenjaminXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 788
Default

Quote:

As for the Sony DSLR-A100, I think that the biggest dissapointment for KM owners was noise and control layout.

Many 7D owners were hoping for a model that had the same control layout as their 7D. But, the new Sony's layout is much closer to the smaller KM 5D (which still has a pretty good control layout, it just doesn't offer all of the 7D's controls).

The other issue is noise (as expected when you stuff more pixels into the same size sensor).

From images I've looked at from the models you're discussing, Sony probably made some mistakes from a marketing perspective.

1. They decided not to smooth out the noise. If you look closely at images taken in controlled conditions from models like the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 side by side, you'll see that the Sony is retaining more detail at higher ISO speeds. In other words, they decided not to use an aggresive noise reduction system in the camera's image processing pipeline. So, the images have more visible noise than competing models.

2. The camera is more sensitive than it's rated ISO speed. So, your effective ISO speed is higher than it's set to. But, in fairness, the same thing applies to the new Canon (but, not to the Nikon).

3. The camera's metering leans towards protecting the highlights. Since noise can be far worse in underexposed areas, visible noise is going to be higher if you use the default metering at higher ISO speeds.

This can be a rather dramatic difference in metering. For example, I saw a sequence of images a while back taken of the same subjects from a D80 and DSLR-A100, where the effective ISO speed from the Sony was almost 2 stops higher than from the Nikon due to metering and ISO senstivity differences with their default matrix metering in those conditions (lower light scenario).

IOW, the shutter speeds were almost as fast at ISO 400 from the Sony, as the Nikon was getting at ISO 1600 at the same aperture. So, to be fair, you would have needed to compare the Nikon's ISO 400 photos to the Sony's ISO 1600 images for that particular photo sequence.

This metering tendency can hurt you from a noise perspective. The Sony's metering system appears to weight the focus point much higher than metering systems from other models, too. So, you need to be aware of that tendency shooting with one.

4. The camera's processing appears to try and compress the Dynamic Range to reduce the probability of losing highlight and shadow detail. This leads to a flatter appearance that some KM owners don't like, since it's different than they're accustomed to with the 5D and 7D. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

If you exposed the images the same way (same aperture, shutter speed and effective ISO speed), shooting in raw and converting with the same raw converter, I think you'd find that the differences between these models would diminish considerably. A lot of the differences boils down to metering, ISO sensitivity and in camera image processing (with the Sony using less aggresive noise reduction).





This post is very correct. I have personally arrived at the same conclusion concerning the ISO performanceof the A100 as well.

Don't be too quick to think that the Nikon D80 with the same SONY CCD and the Pentax K10D with the SONY chip too, would be better than the A100 at high ISO with all those noise reductions. The SONY ALPHA dSLR-A100 is a great camera for photographers! To me, the A100 is trendy, full of tricks up it's sleeve, and advance.

I will think that the Sony A100 is a more advancecamerathan existing K.M. dSLRs due to the added advance D.R.O. feature,highlight and shadow based metering, 230Kpixel LCD with anti-reflective coating, improved anti-shake feature (Now branded as Sony's own Super SteadyShot), dust reduction with anti-static coating, extremely good resolution (higher resolution than the Nikon D80 and EOS 400D), and the improved multiple burst feature. (The Sony is one of the fastest today among it's league) One thing is true, the Sony Alpha A100 has the fastest C.F.write speedsand buffer clearing times. (This is one of the dSLRs,where a fast card would really benefit greatly)

Anothersubtlechange of the A100 over previous K.M. dSLRs is the status LCD screen; now it's look have been improved.

In summary, the Sony Alpha A100 is a noteworthy improvement over K.M. dSLRs as far as I can see. (Reviews also claimed improvements)






BenjaminXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 6, 2006, 12:54 AM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 61
Default

BenjaminXYZ wrote:
Quote:
Quote:

As for the Sony DSLR-A100, I think that the biggest dissapointment for KM owners was noise and control layout.

Many 7D owners were hoping for a model that had the same control layout as their 7D. But, the new Sony's layout is much closer to the smaller KM 5D (which still has a pretty good control layout, it just doesn't offer all of the 7D's controls).

The other issue is noise (as expected when you stuff more pixels into the same size sensor).

From images I've looked at from the models you're discussing, Sony probably made some mistakes from a marketing perspective.

1. They decided not to smooth out the noise. If you look closely at images taken in controlled conditions from models like the Nikon D80 and Sony DSLR-A100 side by side, you'll see that the Sony is retaining more detail at higher ISO speeds. In other words, they decided not to use an aggresive noise reduction system in the camera's image processing pipeline. So, the images have more visible noise than competing models.

2. The camera is more sensitive than it's rated ISO speed. So, your effective ISO speed is higher than it's set to. But, in fairness, the same thing applies to the new Canon (but, not to the Nikon).

3. The camera's metering leans towards protecting the highlights. Since noise can be far worse in underexposed areas, visible noise is going to be higher if you use the default metering at higher ISO speeds.

This can be a rather dramatic difference in metering. For example, I saw a sequence of images a while back taken of the same subjects from a D80 and DSLR-A100, where the effective ISO speed from the Sony was almost 2 stops higher than from the Nikon due to metering and ISO senstivity differences with their default matrix metering in those conditions (lower light scenario).

IOW, the shutter speeds were almost as fast at ISO 400 from the Sony, as the Nikon was getting at ISO 1600 at the same aperture. So, to be fair, you would have needed to compare the Nikon's ISO 400 photos to the Sony's ISO 1600 images for that particular photo sequence.

This metering tendency can hurt you from a noise perspective. The Sony's metering system appears to weight the focus point much higher than metering systems from other models, too. So, you need to be aware of that tendency shooting with one.

4. The camera's processing appears to try and compress the Dynamic Range to reduce the probability of losing highlight and shadow detail. This leads to a flatter appearance that some KM owners don't like, since it's different than they're accustomed to with the 5D and 7D. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

If you exposed the images the same way (same aperture, shutter speed and effective ISO speed), shooting in raw and converting with the same raw converter, I think you'd find that the differences between these models would diminish considerably. A lot of the differences boils down to metering, ISO sensitivity and in camera image processing (with the Sony using less aggresive noise reduction).
This post is very correct. I have personally arrived at the same conclusion concerning the ISO performanceof the A100 as well.

Don't be too quick to think that the Nikon D80 with the same SONY CCD and the Pentax K10D with the SONY chip too, would be better than the A100 at high ISO with all those noise reductions. The SONY ALPHA dSLR-A100 is a great camera for photographers! To me, the A100 is trendy, full of tricks up it's sleeve, and advance.

I will think that the Sony A100 is a more advancecamerathan existing K.M. dSLRs due to the added advance D.R.O. feature,highlight and shadow based metering, 230Kpixel LCD with anti-reflective coating, improved anti-shake feature (Now branded as Sony's own Super SteadyShot), dust reduction with anti-static coating, extremely good resolution (higher resolution than the Nikon D80 and EOS 400D), and the improved multiple burst feature. (The Sony is one of the fastest today among it's league) One thing is true, the Sony Alpha A100 has the fastest C.F.write speedsand buffer clearing times. (This is one of the dSLRs,where a fast card would really benefit greatly)

Anothersubtlechange of the A100 over previous K.M. dSLRs is the status LCD screen; now it's look have been improved.

In summary, the Sony Alpha A100 is a noteworthy improvement over K.M. dSLRs as far as I can see. (Reviews also claimed improvements)


The Sony has some enhancements and certain features are undoubtly an improvement, but many of the features they added are not really important to someone who owns a 5D and especially not important to a someone who owns a 7D. The 10MP sensor is a nice idea but most of us prefer the lower noise of the KMs. The improved continous shooting is nice but the 7D has a large enough buffer that it suits the needs of most. The Alpha improved the resolution of the LCD dramatically compared to the 5D, but not compared to the 7D. I like a higher resolution LCD, but many are happy with the resolution of the 5D. Sure higher a resoltuion LCD is better, but truth is that if you have a 5D, the LCD is adquate. The Alpha is not match for the 7Dfor the shooters who want qucik access to changes in settings. Once you get used to all the external controls of the 7D, it is hard to give up. The viewfinder is also better and brighter on the 7D and that is very important. The improved anti-shake is a feature claim by Sony and it has yet to beproven as sinificantly better. Just remember that there are no manufacturers that will ever claim a feature change is not better than a previous model. One question....What do you mean by the status LCD is improved?

Bottom line isI have yet to hear of a 7D owner that wants to trade it in for an Alpha to replace the 7D. There are some who would like it as a second camera as indicated in these threads. I would consider going Alpha, but not the current model.


TheSony Alpha A100 may seem like a noteworthy improvement over K.M. dSLRs, but just ask a few KM owners thatactually bought an Alpha because their KM couldn't get repaired due to a temporary parts shortage. Ask them if they feel the Alpha is an improvment. I'm not just talking about 7D owners either. There are a few 5D owners that ended up with a Sony and they are not satisfied either. There are also some KM owners that got there money from Sony and now won't buy the Sony. Forget the PR reviews, we have here and in other Maxxum/Sony forums the reviews of actual users who have literally taken thousands of shots of their KM and have looked at, used, or even purchasedthe Sony. It's not a bad camera and I would buy it before a lot of the other brands, but it is not the best thing since film.


Meatwhistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 6, 2006, 4:24 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
BenjaminXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 788
Default

Quote:

The Sony has some enhancements and certain features are undoubtly an improvement, but many of the features they added are not really important to someone who owns a 5D and especially not important to a someone who owns a 7D. The 10MP sensor is a nice idea but most of us prefer the lower noise of the KMs. The improved continous shooting is nice but the 7D has a large enough buffer that it suits the needs of most. The Alpha improved the resolution of the LCD dramatically compared to the 5D, but not compared to the 7D. I like a higher resolution LCD, but many are happy with the resolution of the 5D. Sure higher a resoltuion LCD is better, but truth is that if you have a 5D, the LCD is adquate. The Alpha is not match for the 7Dfor the shooters who want qucik access to changes in settings. Once you get used to all the external controls of the 7D, it is hard to give up. The viewfinder is also better and brighter on the 7D and that is very important. The improved anti-shake is a feature claim by Sony and it has yet to beproven as sinificantly better. Just remember that there are no manufacturers that will ever claim a feature change is not better than a previous model. One question....What do you mean by the status LCD is improved?

Bottom line isI have yet to hear of a 7D owner that wants to trade it in for an Alpha to replace the 7D. There are some who would like it as a second camera as indicated in these threads. I would consider going Alpha, but not the current model.


TheSony Alpha A100 may seem like a noteworthy improvement over K.M. dSLRs, but just ask a few KM owners thatactually bought an Alpha because their KM couldn't get repaired due to a temporary parts shortage. Ask them if they feel the Alpha is an improvment. I'm not just talking about 7D owners either. There are a few 5D owners that ended up with a Sony and they are not satisfied either. There are also some KM owners that got there money from Sony and now won't buy the Sony. Forget the PR reviews, we have here and in other Maxxum/Sony forums the reviews of actual users who have literally taken thousands of shots of their KM and have looked at, used, or even purchasedthe Sony. It's not a bad camera and I would buy it before a lot of the other brands, but it is not the best thing since film.
OK, you may have a point;

The Sony Alpha dSLR-A100 might be having some coolimprovements over existing K.M. dSLRs. However, the improvementsmight notnoteworthy enough for existing K.M. dSLR users to upgrade.


BenjaminXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 6, 2006, 2:20 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
MINOLTANUT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 807
Default

with my 70-200 2.8 apo ,indoors is not a problem..i run it at 400 asa 250 shutter 2.8......takes better pics than my 5d did....i had to be at 800 and 160
MINOLTANUT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 7, 2006, 10:50 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2
Default

Here's my personal experience with the A100

It's great, but... I've had major backfocussing issues with it, for any opening wider than f/4.5. Tried with Minolta AF 50mm f/1.4, Minolta AF 28-85mm f/3.5-4.5, Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8

I sent it back to Sony the other day, am anxious to see if they can fix it.

Look a thread on this subject athttp://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=20151147
hassert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 13, 2006, 1:03 AM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 101
Default

I think that a lot of the noise nonsense is the about the photographer ... below you'll find four pictures, 2 different settings 200 and 800 ISO, the hornet was underexposed at 200 ISO, the small insect correct at 800 ISO bothe where than cropped significantly. Result ... the noise for the 200 ISO matches the 800 ISO. Why? My mistake.

This picture is shot at 800 ISO, RAW developed in lightroom 4 beta
Attached Images
 
belgian pie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 13, 2006, 1:07 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 101
Default

crop of the 800 ISO pic
Attached Images
 
belgian pie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 13, 2006, 1:08 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 101
Default

Hornet 200 ISO crop
Attached Images
 
belgian pie is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 8:09 AM.