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Old May 23, 2007, 7:12 PM   #1
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Is There or Isn't There? From what I understand there is NO pre-flash while using a "D" lens and a KM5600, BUT, there is a preflash with a non "D" lens.

Can anyone Please clarify this?


Camera is a 5D.
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Old May 23, 2007, 8:05 PM   #2
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There is a preflash (actually, it's a series of preflashes) when using a Konica Minolta flash on a Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D, D (ADI Compatible) lens or not.

The only way around it using a supported KM flash like the 3600HS (D) or 5600HS (D)) with a KM DSLR model is to use a 7D with manual power settings. The 5D doesn't support manual power settings.

If you really want to get rid of the preflash, you'll need to move to a different flash type that has a built in sensor to measure reflected light during the flash exposure (Metz 54MZ4 using the Auto versus TTL mode, older Auto Thryistor type flash, flash with manual power settings on the flash itself, etc.).

You will have a preflash using a KM 5D with a 5600HS (D) on it, even if you're using a D type lens and have the flash set to ADI in the camera. A preflash is still used to judge the length of the main flash burst needed with this setup. With film, you could use OTF (Off the Film) metering during a flash exposure, so no preflash was required. With Digital, the sensors reflect light differently and manufacturers have been forced to use a preflash to help judge exposure.

If you look real close, you'll see the preflash in the viewfinder, just before the mirror flips up (blocking your view from the main flash burst). The preflash (actually, it's a brief series of preflashes) occurs approximately 140ms before the main flash burst with a KM DSLR.

Note that you'll also have a preflash on other popular DSLR models like those from Canon and Nikon (although the time between the preflash and main flash burst is slightly longer with KM DSLR models).


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Old May 23, 2007, 8:43 PM   #3
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Thanks for the clarification Jim. I had a feeling that you would have an answer for me. I have also noticed the flash that comes through the viewfinder. I thought that it was just part of the main flash.

So ADI isa feature that works simultaneously with preflash? If so, what extra advantages does ADI offer? I think a preflash is not good in some cases.

As for the disadvantages of a preflash I do notice that sometimes my wife or cats eyes seem to be half shut when I look at the photo.

To bad the 5D does not offer the manual setting. Maybe Sony will have something in the future that eliminates the preflash.
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Old May 23, 2007, 9:12 PM   #4
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If you can see it in the viewfinder, the CCD isn't seeing it (since the flash is occuring before the mirror is out of the way). IOW, it's a preflash. ;-)

As for the benefits of an ADI compatible lens, I'm not sure there are any. lol I've seen that debated, too. Theoritically, the camera knows more about the focus distance that it can factor into flash exposure. But, I'm not convinced the algorithms are actually benefiting from it yet.

This topic has been "beaten to death" on a number of forums (although not as much here), with people going to the trouble of analyzing the preflash bursts, length of time between the preflash and main falsh and more.

It's not just Konica Minolta models. Other manufacturers also use a preflash, The problem you're seeing with eyes half shut is commonly referred to as "lazy eye" in forums that discuss this issue (although term is not really an accurate one and could offend those that have a medical condition known as lazy eye).

If it's a big issue to you, switch flash systems. The Metz 54MZ series models are popular choices with KM DSLR models. Most users opt for the 54MZ4 using the latest SCA3302M6 foot for Minolta. You can use the Metz Auto Mode and the built in sensor in the flash is used to judge exposure (it terminates the main flash burst when it sees enough reflected light for the aperture and ISO speed selected). The newer SCA3302 foot (M5 or later) for KM models from Metz is also aware of your camera settings (so, no need to use manual exposure to eliminate a preflash).

With a KM Flash, you don't have that ability.

Or, if you're on a very tight budget, do like I do... I use a Sunpak 333 Auto via an Adapter and use Manual Exposure on the camera. This flash has a built in sensor that measures reflected light during the exposure. It's not as sophisticated as a Metz MZ series strobe (it won't know your camera settings, hence the need to use manual exposure on the camera, setting it to match the aperture range selected on the flash). But, this type of solution eliminates the need for a preflash, and it's very inexpensive.

I spent a total of $48 for a flash system to use with my 5D (and that included two flashes). I had to buy new "used" flash units, since the ones I've got have trigger voltages that are too high. LOL

* $16 for an FS-1100 equivalent third party adapter to give me an ISO standard hotshoe. You can get this same adapter here:

http://www.gadgetinfinity.com/produc...275&page=1

* a Sunpak 222 Auto with tilt and two aperture ranges for a smaller flash unit (GN of about 72 feet at ISO 100) for $7.00 from KEH.com (and they even threw in a nice, coiled PC Sync Cord with it).

* a Sunpak 333 Auto with tilt, swivel and a manual zoom head with multiple auto aperture ranges, as well as better manual settings (full, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16).

GN runs from 86 feet to 120 feet at ISO 100, depending on the zoom head setting. I got this one for $25 (like new in box in 10 condition from the used department at B&H).

Total Flash System Investment: $48

These are Auto flashes (in the sense that the flash is capable of throttling it's own ouput, based on how much reflected light it sees for the aperture range selected).

So, it's not as tough as it sounds (more of a set and forget in most indoor environments, letting the strobe control the exposure).

My Sunpak 333 Auto has 3 auto ranges.

These ranges have different distances from short to long they can be used at.

For example, one of the ranges probably runs around 3 to 22 feet at f/5.6 and ISO 200.

So, I just pick a range and set the camera to the same aperture and ISO speed shown for it on the strobe, and let the flash control it's own output within the range selected.

Shutter speed makes no difference for the amount of light the camera is seeing from the flash. That's because the flash burst is very short (my Sunpak 333 Auto will use a flash length of between 1/1200 second and 1/20000 second).

The only reason to vary shutter speed with a flash exposure is either to allow more or less ambient light in, or to make sure shutter speeds are fast enough to prevent motion blur if there is a lot of ambient light contributing.

That's why many cameras simply set the camera to a fixed shutter speed of around 1/60 second when you use the built in flash. It's a compromise setting. The flash burst length is then varied to control the actual exposure.

If you set it to around 1/100 second, that will be fine for the majority of indoor conditions where you'd need a flash if you are using something like ISO 200 and f/5.6.

If you're like me, you wouldn't be changing apertures a lot indoors anyway.

In a newer non-dedicated Auto Sunpak, the 383 Super has roughly the same specs as my 333 Auto (but, then you'll pay a lot more as they tend to go for around $70 new).

Note that the adapter I use does *not* have voltage protection built in. So, I'd be careful.

I'd make sure to measure the trigger voltage for any strobe you want to use via one. . I've got an older Vivitar that I would not try to mount on my KM 5D for fear of frying it without using a Wein Safe Sync to isolate it.

See this page for details on trigger voltage. That's why I went with the used Sunpaks (most of these have much lower trigger voltages).

http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html


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Old May 24, 2007, 12:46 AM   #5
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Wow Jim thats more information then I expected. Sorry to bring up a subject thats been "beaten to death", but I got to say thatyou really knowyourflash systems. I think I'll have to read your explaination a few times before I fully understand all of what your explaining.

The pre-flash is not really ahuge issue in terms of getting a well exposed shot.but I just think that a system that doesn't use a pre-flash should theoretically get more consistently good shots.

When I bought my KM 5600 D they where getting hard to find and luckly ( I thought then) I found one for around $270 new.

I figured at that time that this was the best flash available forthe 5D to use with the D series lenses. Overall I'm happy with the results. I would say that most of the time ( 75% of the time) I get good results without lazy eye being an issue. But it still happens on occasion, more with the cat than the wife, but with others I know they always have lazy eye no matter what I do except turn off the flash.

After reading what you say about the Metz 54MZ4 and the SCA3302M6 foot ( which I'm assuming is a item sold seperately ) that sounds like a superior flash system that doesn't use a pre-flash (no lazy eye ).

I really like the "auto" flashes that calibrate everything for you and let you focus more on composing your shot so this system sounds great as long as the results aremore consistent then the KM flash. Plus it sounds like it should work with any lens.

The Sunpack 333 auto also sounds like a very good alternative but the Metz sounds easier to use. For me the easier the better and the extra money is worth it to a point. I need to see what that set-up cost.

As for trigger voltage, do you know what the maximum voltage amount is for the 5D? I'll look for it later.

According to http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.htmlthe Metz 54MZ4s output is 4.71 volts. That sounds pretty low but I don't know.

Hey Jim, thanks for the detailed explaination, thisgives me a much better understanding of how flash systems work.

Mike


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Old May 24, 2007, 7:17 AM   #6
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It really hasn't been beaten to death on the forums here. On some forums, it can be a "touchy" subject it was discussed so much a while back.

Most people say that they don't have a problem with the preflash. Some people are more sensitive to one compared to others. Some pets are also more sensitive to it (i.e., your cat issue). Lighting can also make a difference (tends to be worse in darker surroundings).

As for a Metz solution, the 54MZ4 is normally sold with the adapter. Just make sure to get the one with the correct foot on it for Minolta AF models. That foot needs to be the SCA3302M5 or later (the M5 is the version number and that's the mininum that will work correctly with your 5D). Higher is better and Metz can upgrade one to the latest firmware if it's M3 or higher from what I understand. Bogen is the U.S. distributor and does the Metz upgrades.

B&H normally sells this flash. it's around $400 with the foot.

Metz 54MZ4 with Minolta foot at B&H

This would make a good solution for someone shooting with multiple systems, too (since the foot is interchangeable and you could get one for Nikon and Canon models that also work with the same flash). It seems to be a popular strobe. But, I don't think the TTL mode (using a preflash) is as accurate as the KM flashes from what I've seen reported. Most users do say that the Metz Auto Mode (where it uses it's own built in sensor to measure reflected light) is very accurate for exposure with a KM DSLR.




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Old May 24, 2007, 9:48 AM   #7
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Wow, thats a lot of $$$. Guess I'll be using the KM for a while.

The Metz 54MZ4 shows to use 4.71 V. That sounds low enough to use it on a 5D but I'm not sure.

Also reading the specs it looks like HSS is not available for Minolta. Outdoor portraits are my favorite and sometimes shutter speeds need to be high, occasionally around 1/500.

Maybe two flashes is what I need. I wonder if you could use them in tandem?
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Old May 24, 2007, 9:59 AM   #8
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HSS is available with the Metz 54MZ4 using the correct SCA3302M5 or later foot. But, HSS won't work if you go wireless with one (that's probably where the confusion is coming in).

You can find some reviews of it from KM DSL:R owners here:

http://www.dyxum.com/reviews/flash/r...sp?IDFlash=178

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Old May 24, 2007, 10:55 AM   #9
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Hi my dear friends,

I acquired the "Generic" Sigma Super "DG" 500 for Minolta/Sony. not the cheaper "ST" one...which allow me to use the HSS facility, outdoor...also has such "Pre Flash" feature...as here where I live when was possible to buy a original one...I was NOT so sure to buy a KM body...when finally decided NO Minolta D5600 was possible to obtain here...at the beginning as, I love to collect, till today 8 flash from hot shoe to hammers ones, I own a "Generic" adapter from "Normally" to Minolta shoe...I use a Metz various Sunpak's...neither one allow me HSS...so I feel the necessity to buy one specific for my lovely 7D body...far so...I decided for the available brand new Sigma.

Here an example how this unit work well together with my 7D body at HSS deftness:roll:

Peace,

Alex 007:|
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