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Old Mar 16, 2006, 4:35 PM   #11
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slipe wrote:
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... I don't agree with your percentages though. If I am shooting at 420mm equivalent and can only generate 1/30 second I can often get a really sharp image with stabilization and burst if I work at it. My percentages go down to zero if I turn the stabilization off.
Idon't thinkwe really disagree. If it takes 100 shots to get at least one shake-free without stabilization, I'd count that as close enough to zero chance as to make no practical difference. But even with those low odds without stabilization, you stand a very good chance of getting a shake-free by shooting 3 to 6 shots in the same situation (shutter speed and focal length).

That isone of the thingsI was attempting to showwith thattable. I spent so many years working with those kinds of tables that I forget they are not always clear to everyone else. And I never was very good at explaining the tables - that was always the hard part.

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I find that using a good burst mode and taking 3-5 shots improves your chances over taking 3-5 individual shots. It might be that you are securing the camera and not messing with the shutter on the subsequent shots. That might not be true if you use a full shutter press and have the delay time to stabilize the camera. But I always shoot after a half-press. ...
Interesting. If that is the case, it seems that the first shot of a burst should have higher odds of showing shake than the subsequent ones sincethe first onehas the same conditions as a single shot. Will have to try some tests to see if that is the case. Certainly less hassle to shoot a burst than todo several independant shots.Some chance that it will be one of those things that depends on the individual doing the shooting though.
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Old Mar 16, 2006, 4:46 PM   #12
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I've always been a fan of Nikon's BSS (Best Shot Selector). It allows you to hold down the shutter button while it takes multiple photos.

When you release the shutter button, it only saves the sharpest image (probably by looking at the file size with jpeg images, so that may not work with raw, unless they could compute it via the thumbnail being produced in near realtime). It's not a perfect algorithm (limited buffer size, etc.). But, I like it.

So, I think Anti-shake and BSS would make a killer combination (without the need to store a lot of photos taken in bursts trying to get one good one). I've sometimes wondered why other manufactuers haven't tried it (but, it's probably because of Nikon's patents).




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Old Mar 16, 2006, 4:59 PM   #13
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Looks about right to me too. When I had the 7D for testing, one thing I did notice was how nice it was to have the little shake-meter along the right side of the viewfinder. It helped me alot as far as pointing out to me when I wasn't using good form (compared to my A1, which doesn't have the meter). Because of the meter, I think my usable shot ratio was better with the 7D...not that the A1 is a slouch either
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Old Mar 16, 2006, 8:06 PM   #14
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After a bit of testing, my conclusion is that Minolta's antishake system cuts the probability of ruining a shot with shake in half. That means if you have shake 20% of the time without AS, you will have it 10% of the time with AS at the same focal length and shutter speed.
By the time I had read all of the replies I reversed the statement. I suffer from DD or delayed dyslexia. Been waiting for a telethon to help me out but Jerry isn't interested.

I don't find that to be the case. If the focal length and shutter speed are such that I can get 80% of my handheld shots sharp without stabilization I will get 100% sharp with it. Maybe there is a difference in the anti-shake effectiveness. I'm still using my old FZ10 set for type 2 stabilization.

I probably agree with your numbers in a general way. I get almost as many shots blurred by handshake with stabilization as I do without it, but that is because I push handheld capability a lot more with stabilization.

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Interesting. If that is the case, it seems that the first shot of a burst should have higher odds of showing shake than the subsequent ones since the first one has the same conditions as a single shot. Will have to try some tests to see if that is the case. Certainly less hassle to shoot a burst than to do several independant shots. Some chance that it will be one of those things that depends on the individual doing the shooting though.
It seems the first shot is always one of the poor ones. Your second point might be more of a key – I'm a lot more likely to push the burst button when shutter speed is marginal than I am to take 5 separate shots. Often the opportunity is just gone and often I'm just too lazy.

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Old Mar 16, 2006, 9:31 PM   #15
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I think there is some psychology involved.

Because we have anti-shake, we don't think about camera shake as much (i.e., we take it for granted that the camera is handling it). So, we don't worry as much about holding a camera steady, controlling breathing, smoothly squeezing the shutter button, etc.

Without anti-shake, we're far more careful when shutter speeds get slow (or at least I am).

So, that skews the results when you review photos and look at focal lengths and shutter speeds, thinking about the results you could get without anti-shake.


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Old Mar 17, 2006, 4:45 AM   #16
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JimC wrote:
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I've always been a fan of Nikon's BSS (Best Shot Selector). It allows you to hold down the shutter button while it takes multiple photos.

When you release the shutter button, it only saves the sharpest image (probably by looking at the file size with jpeg images, so that may not work with raw, unless they could compute it via the thumbnail being produced in near realtime). It's not a perfect algorithm (limited buffer size, etc.). But, I like it.

So, I think Anti-shake and BSS would make a killer combination (without the need to store a lot of photos taken in bursts trying to get one good one). I've sometimes wondered why other manufactuers haven't tried it (but, it's probably because of Nikon's patents).
Jim, I have a Coolpix 8400 and BSS works very well in raw mode. The CP 8400 has a second BSS mode, where a series of pictures is shot and then the picture with the best exposure (there are three choices for "best") is selected. This second BSS mode cannot be used with raw images. I use BSS all the time with my CP 8400. If I don't want to use it because of a very fast shutter speed, then I simply release the shutter button immediately.

BSS probably works as follows. For a certain amount of pixels in the center the oscillation with its neighbors is calculated and summed up. The higher the oscillation sum the higher the sharpeness. This is a very good measure to compare sharpeness of images with exactly the same content.

Because it is so simple BSS could be implemented in the firmware of any digicam and it would avoid a lot of unwanted blurring. The only costs would be the royalties for Nikon's patent, which seem to be too high for other manufacturers.

BSS is particularily effective against the shake caused by pressing the shutter button. Thus normally it is enough to shoot only two or three pictures instead of 11, the maximum of the CP 8400.

Now on the KM 5D/7D you have an additional anti shake reserve (similar to BSS but not as good), by choosing the two second self-timer. If you then press the shutter button the mirror retracts immediately -not only after two seconds. Thus using the 2 second self-timer you can completely avoid the shake caused by mirror and the shutter button. Together with the anti shake you can then make fairly sharp shots with 1/4 of a second or so.

Combining high iso,fast lense, anti shake and 2 second self timer you can push available light photography to new limits.
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