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Old Aug 30, 2006, 7:45 AM   #11
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I was trying to say that the lack of separate control wheels on the 5d was killing me. Gettings this feature alone was worth the upgrade to the 7D.

Now to put iso on a control wheel too and display it permanently in the viewfinder. Then, in manual exposure, you could hold AEL and spin the iso dial.

And displaying the color temperature of your custom white balance settings would be nice.
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Old Aug 30, 2006, 8:40 AM   #12
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tmoreau wrote:
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I was trying to say that the lack of separate control wheels on the 5d was killing me. Gettings this feature alone was worth the upgrade to the 7D.

Now to put iso on a control wheel too and display it permanently in the viewfinder. Then, in manual exposure, you could hold AEL and spin the iso dial.

And displaying the color temperature of your custom white balance settings would be nice.
Agreed... the lack of the second wheel on the 5D is annoying. I thought maybe it was only because I had the 7D before the 5D, but I see it makes no difference. What was disturbing for me at first I couldn't remember what took the place of the second wheel on the 5D when I first started using it. I find the wheel easier to access while looking through the viewfinder than having to push and hold a button while turning a wheel. Granted, this only applies to Manual Exposure and I could live with it, but given an option, the two wheel system works best for me.

I like your idea of putting ISO on a control wheel, but am happy with the way it works now. I could see how it might be useful in cases where you already have your eye on the viewfinder and realize you need a different ISO. Could make the difference between getting the shot and missing it.

I wish the auto ISO range was 100-800 when not using a flash like the 5D instead of 100-400, but reality is I generally set my own ISO.

As I said in a prior post, I wish they had taken some of the improvements like how the you access zone matching on the 5D and modified the 7D through a firmware adjustment, but that would have meantchanging the manuals or adding an addendum when the 7D where still in production, so they probably avoided major changes like that.

BTW, did you check to see if you have the latestfirmware already installed? Mine was already upgradedwhen I bought mine back in April.

As a final thought, I must admit sometimes it is tough owning both, since it requires a little thought remembering how tom do what on which. If I had to own only one, it would be the 7D, but it is hard to give up the lighter weight of the 5D. Physical size is not an issue and the 7D grip feels better even with my small hands, so I can only imagine that someone with large hands would love the 7D. The only reason I bought the5D as a backup was that I got it dirt cheap as a display model with no accessories. I didn't need a second camera but for that price, I couldn't argue and having a backup is nice. I hate to admit it but Ifind myself taking the 5D when I'm lazy. Heck in the winter with a big coat and the right I can use it as a pocket camera.
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Old Aug 30, 2006, 8:54 AM   #13
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Okay so Sony managed to loose my Maxxum 5D. I can't find a new 5D body any where, but I can find some 7Ds with kit lense for about what I paid for the 5D a few months back.

Can any one tell me how much bigger and heavier the 7D is vs the 5D. I would probably enjoy having the speed and some of the other functions the 7D has. But is it so heavy that I'll won't want to carry it around?
The more I think about it, the more it burns me that Sony could lose a camera in the repair process. It's one thing if it got lost in shipment somewhere, how can they lose a camera while being repaired? Based on the lack of parts, more than likely they would buy it, but I almost feel that in a case of a blatant error like this, they should offer you a new Sony. In fact, this whole no parts thing is so bad, they should just give anyone with a 5D in warranty that has a problem a new Sony. I say 5D because some 7Ders would not want the Sony, because they may have bought it for all the controls the 7D has or they may have paid more for the 7D then the Sony is worth. 7Ders should be given an option of money and orexchange. Of course it will never happen becauseSony would lose a lot of money and someKM ownerswould find ways to cause a repair issue to get a new Sony.


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Old Aug 30, 2006, 11:49 AM   #14
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meanstreak wrote:
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I almost feel that in a case of a blatant error like this, they should offer you a new Sony. In fact, this whole no parts thing is so bad, they should just give anyone with a 5D in warranty that has a problem a new Sony. Of course it will never happen becauseSony would lose a lot of money and someKM ownerswould find ways to cause a repair issue to get a new Sony.

Sony has been buying back *un-repairable* 5D and 7D at full price. They have a 7 year prorated buy back, but most I have heard from have been given full proce. Since some paid well over $1000 for their camera, this is an equitable solution IMO. There is some indication that Sony does have parts but has chosen not to use them, but in any event, giving your money back costs Sony as much or more than giving an Alpha 100.
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Old Aug 30, 2006, 12:11 PM   #15
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cope wrote:
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meanstreak wrote:
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I almost feel that in a case of a blatant error like this, they should offer you a new Sony. In fact, this whole no parts thing is so bad, they should just give anyone with a 5D in warranty that has a problem a new Sony. Of course it will never happen becauseSony would lose a lot of money and someKM ownerswould find ways to cause a repair issue to get a new Sony.

Sony has been buying back *un-repairable* 5D and 7D at full price. They have a 7 year prorated buy back, but most I have heard from have been given full proce. Since some paid well over $1000 for their camera, this is an equitable solution IMO. There is some indication that Sony does have parts but has chosen not to use them, but in any event, giving your money back costs Sony as much or more than giving an Alpha 100.
It had actually been repaired. Sony had me send it to there Laredo service center. (Laredo doesn't work on DSLRs BTW) Who then shipped it off to Precision Camera. Precision replaced the shutter and CCD assembly and shipped it back to Laredo. I think it was supposed to have been shipped back to me. So a couple of the theories are Precision shipped the wrong camera back to Laredo or the my camera was shipped but Laredo has a sloppy process when the camera doesn't have a work order attached to it.

It does kind of burn me a bit, but the fact that I got to replace it with a 7D is extinguishing the flames a bit :-). I do process engineering and software development for a living and if you ask me Sony really needs some help in that area.

Oh and they did offer to pay me what ever it would cost me to purchase a new 5D and I found a couple where the guys were wanting $7-800 for the kit. Which is way more than I paid for it. I was gonna say well we can do this or you can send me an A100. But for me, the 6mp sensor was a better deal. Especially in a 7D

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Old Aug 30, 2006, 1:46 PM   #16
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cope wrote:
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meanstreak wrote:
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I almost feel that in a case of a blatant error like this, they should offer you a new Sony. In fact, this whole no parts thing is so bad, they should just give anyone with a 5D in warranty that has a problem a new Sony. Of course it will never happen becauseSony would lose a lot of money and someKM ownerswould find ways to cause a repair issue to get a new Sony.

Sony has been buying back *un-repairable* 5D and 7D at full price. They have a 7 year prorated buy back, but most I have heard from have been given full proce. Since some paid well over $1000 for their camera, this is an equitable solution IMO. There is some indication that Sony does have parts but has chosen not to use them, but in any event, giving your money back costs Sony as much or more than giving an Alpha 100.
I realize that they have been buying back units at full price, but some of the current KM owners are not going to be able to easily get replacements for their cameras and may have a lot tied up in lenses so they should do whatever it takes to get the job done. It is just a frustrating situationsincemany of us wonder what will happen ifwe have a problem.

The best thing in most cases for us and them would just be to fix the camera. For example, I have a 5D that I paid 265 dollars for because I took the time and energy to make several trips to buy it off the display at Circuit City until they finally sold it to me.Buying me out would do me no good since I would have a hard time getting one for that price. I'm not suggesting that I am entitled toaSony Alph if that camera went bad, I would just want it fixed. Undoubtably, itmightseem fair to refund me, but that camera is worth more than what I paid. I just happened to negotiate a good deal.

I think most of us just want what is fair and just. We are not looking for a handout. We bought products thinking we would get support and support is what we should get. Sony assumed all of KMs responsiblities and I expected some bumps in the transition. I knew this going in since I bought my 7D after the KM/Sony aquisition, but whats fair is fair. Wedeserve to be treated fairly when it comes to service and support.

As far as I'm concerned, any bugs in the 5Ds and 7Ds that can be addressed with firmware upgrades should provided. Accessories should still be available. Many 7D owners would like to purchase the vertical grip without paying through the nose because there are none to be had. They could keep making them if they chose with the Sony label. At least the prices of the KM flashes finally dropped because now people can buy the Sony version.

Anyway... I've ranted enough... I think I need to go take some pictures.
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Old Aug 30, 2006, 1:49 PM   #17
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kberntsen wrote:
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cope wrote:
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meanstreak wrote:
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I almost feel that in a case of a blatant error like this, they should offer you a new Sony. In fact, this whole no parts thing is so bad, they should just give anyone with a 5D in warranty that has a problem a new Sony. Of course it will never happen becauseSony would lose a lot of money and someKM ownerswould find ways to cause a repair issue to get a new Sony.

Sony has been buying back *un-repairable* 5D and 7D at full price. They have a 7 year prorated buy back, but most I have heard from have been given full proce. Since some paid well over $1000 for their camera, this is an equitable solution IMO. There is some indication that Sony does have parts but has chosen not to use them, but in any event, giving your money back costs Sony as much or more than giving an Alpha 100.
It had actually been repaired. Sony had me send it to there Laredo service center. (Laredo doesn't work on DSLRs BTW) Who then shipped it off to Precision Camera. Precision replaced the shutter and CCD assembly and shipped it back to Laredo. I think it was supposed to have been shipped back to me. So a couple of the theories are Precision shipped the wrong camera back to Laredo or the my camera was shipped but Laredo has a sloppy process when the camera doesn't have a work order attached to it.

It does kind of burn me a bit, but the fact that I got to replace it with a 7D is extinguishing the flames a bit :-). I do process engineering and software development for a living and if you ask me Sony really needs some help in that area.

Oh and they did offer to pay me what ever it would cost me to purchase a new 5D and I found a couple where the guys were wanting $7-800 for the kit. Which is way more than I paid for it. I was gonna say well we can do this or you can send me an A100. But for me, the 6mp sensor was a better deal. Especially in a 7D

Well then, it looks like they did the right thing by you... as they should have. It looks like we are starting to see some signs of repairs rather than buy outs.




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Old Aug 30, 2006, 9:11 PM   #18
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I think you're right, Meanstreak. It's not fair to offer me what I paid for the camera when no other equitable replacement exists at that cost. If my 7d goes down, I cannot buy another for what I paid, and the Alpha 100is not an equivalent model. WhatSony needs to do is repair the units that need repair. There is no such thing as an 'un-repairable' camera. There is no reason thatSony cannot order any part, they can be manufactured as easily today as in the past.There may be cameras that cost more to repair than replace though, that is not my problem- it is Sony's. They bought this problem with all the technology and intellectual property they bought from KM. IMO if they cannot or will not repair your camera, they need to offer you a equivalent replacement. It may be a hard line to tow, but I consider it the poorest of customer service when Sony simply takes the profitfrom KM while trying to remove the cost at our expense. This widespread problem is not going unnoticed, I have seen this factmentionedin print.

I cannot be alone in thinking- if they cannot service my KM properly, I will move to Nikon or even the dreaded camera manufacturer that starts with the third letter of the alphabet. My lenses are enjoying a marked upturn in prices anyway. There is already a big question in my mind as to whether or not I would buy a Sony body in the future. The Sony lenses are not any cheaper than N or C lenses (and there are less of them), the noise from the 10.x mp is fairly bad. They're showing KM owners now how they can expect to be treated as Sony customers.Sony's 20-25% market share targetlooks unattainable to me right now, they should keep in mind that KM had only 3% and had excellent repair/service. (I've sent inmany Minolta bodies for various things and never had one 'un-repairable' or lost. Never in over 20 years. I have had to pay for some, but they were always fixed.)

There are still KM bodies out there new, so the buyout may work short term (since you may well make money in this market) but in the long term this isn't an acceptable way to do business.
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 9:19 AM   #19
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Mercury694 wrote:
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I think you're right, Meanstreak. It's not fair to offer me what I paid for the camera when no other equitable replacement exists at that cost. If my 7d goes down, I cannot buy another for what I paid, and the Alpha 100is not an equivalent model. WhatSony needs to do is repair the units that need repair. There is no such thing as an 'un-repairable' camera. There is no reason thatSony cannot order any part, they can be manufactured as easily today as in the past.There may be cameras that cost more to repair than replace though, that is not my problem- it is Sony's. They bought this problem with all the technology and intellectual property they bought from KM. IMO if they cannot or will not repair your camera, they need to offer you a equivalent replacement. It may be a hard line to tow, but I consider it the poorest of customer service when Sony simply takes the profitfrom KM while trying to remove the cost at our expense. This widespread problem is not going unnoticed, I have seen this factmentionedin print.

I cannot be alone in thinking- if they cannot service my KM properly, I will move to Nikon or even the dreaded camera manufacturer that starts with the third letter of the alphabet. My lenses are enjoying a marked upturn in prices anyway. There is already a big question in my mind as to whether or not I would buy a Sony body in the future. The Sony lenses are not any cheaper than N or C lenses (and there are less of them), the noise from the 10.x mp is fairly bad. They're showing KM owners now how they can expect to be treated as Sony customers.Sony's 20-25% market share targetlooks unattainable to me right now, they should keep in mind that KM had only 3% and had excellent repair/service. (I've sent inmany Minolta bodies for various things and never had one 'un-repairable' or lost. Never in over 20 years. I have had to pay for some, but they were always fixed.)

There are still KM bodies out there new, so the buyout may work short term (since you may well make money in this market) but in the long term this isn't an acceptable way to do business.
Well I can tell you from dealing with them. They were buying the cameras back to "Speed" resolution process. One of the guys I was talking to sounded like and old KM employee. And he said that parts were starting to be available for repairs. Now I don't agree with Sony that they don't have a "Equivalent" product available. I don't really see the Alpha A100 as an upgrade to the 5D. There are gains and loses that I say balance it out.

Its interesting, they or at least KM made a big deal about how the system would live on, but it seems Sony doesn't feel the same way. I don't kow about camera sales, but I know in the computer business you real margins are on the accessories (Vertical Grip). So why not keep your base happy. Do they really think the A100 user is going to be running out and buying some of there high end lenses? No if I were just getting into every thing now I can't say I go with Sony because they have a prosumer model and nothing else. You can assume they'll come out with a higher end model but then we don't really know that for sure. So I'd really have to consider one of the other options.

They could have even replaced my camera with a Refurb so long as it maintained the original warranty.
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 11:03 AM   #20
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Oh, I agree. It's not likely that you're going to buy an entry level body and then go get that $7,000 APO lens (especially when there is no upgrade path available in bodies). Sure-Sony may make a pro level body, but when and will I want it?

My point on equivalents was not for a 5d, which an arguement could be made that the a100 is equivalent to a 5d (I don't think it is though) but for a 7d, where sony doesn't have an equivalent body.

It's not just that though, their whole concept of customer service is on parade, and to me it doesn't look promising. Sending money to repurchase a new KM body only works if it can actually be replaced. Otherwise, you've just got a stack of expensive glass and a entry level camera with questionable warranty coverage as your system.

I also agree that they should have offered you another KM body with a warranty- at least give you the option. Then you'd be here bragging about their service instead of bemoaning it.
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