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Old Oct 8, 2004, 10:29 AM   #11
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Cybershot455 wrote:
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Of course the W1 lens is still made by Sony isn't it??

David

I don't know. It says Carl Zeiss Vario Tessar. I've seen people stating that it is made in Japan according to the CZ specification but who knows. I rather doubt that it's made in Germany, but what's more important is that most probably it is engineered and specified in Germany by CZ.

I went to the imaging-resource site and compared images from W1 and those from Ixus 500. On the Dave's test box I could clearly see purple halos around the reflections of the light from the shiny bell in the Ixus image , but none from W1 s CZ one. In real life situations I haven't seen any purple fringing from my W1 either
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Old Oct 8, 2004, 10:58 AM   #12
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Carl Zeiss lens' are most popular for no vingetting nor lens distortion, that's why they are so popular for most digital cameras. The ACTUAL designed Carl Zeiss lenses are a couple of hundered of dollars, the Designed lenses, like some of the sony carriers, take the design of the Carl Zeiss lens, and manufactures it. Except for the Lecia's most of the Carl Zeiss lenses are not manufactured by Zeiss but instead the idea is manufatured by another company.
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Old Oct 8, 2004, 11:23 AM   #13
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I went to the imaging resource page and did some comparisons between images taken with different cameras Dave's test box is very good for judging resolution sharpness colour and purple fringing. In terms of purple fringing W1 and P100came on top together with Nikon Coolpix 5200 (ED lens), followed by Sony P93 and Olympus C50. Ixus 500 and Sony P10 were the worst, especially P10, so in terms of purple fringing at least ther is a profound differdence between the previous generation Sony branded and CZ branded lens. Surprisingly, P93 has just a bit more fringing than W1 or P100. Apparently Sony has reworked their lenses.
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Old Oct 8, 2004, 4:30 PM   #14
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blr,

I don't think any of the recent Sony compact Cybershots are known for suffering excess purple fringing.

I have a brilliant *real life* test of purple fringing in the back garden..... and P52, P10, P93 and V1 all passed with flying colours.

In all usual situations you just don't see purple fringingwith the P10, I have around 1700 images on the PC and would know if it was an issue.

I am verysensitive to it and that is why I returned a Canon A75, it was terrible on this issue.

If the "TestBox" really does show excess fringing with the P10 then it shows how little use such minute examination of aftificial tests taken with one camera on one day are in evaluating the images you can expect.

To say there is a profound difference between the last series of Sony own lenses and the ones they make with the CZ name is too sweeping a statement.

I bet if we put a nice outdoor shot taken with W1, P100, P10, V1 etc to a blind test none of us could say for certain which came from which camera.

David




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Old Oct 8, 2004, 8:51 PM   #15
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Yeah Sony has reworked their standard lenses. I've seen sample pics of the P73 and they are sooo much better than my P72.
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Old Oct 9, 2004, 3:08 AM   #16
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CVonV,

I have a P52 as a second camera. Same 3.2MP and same ageas your P72 but a 2x zoom lens that doesn't extend outside the body. The results from it have always been excellent for its price at the time.

However when I got the P12 (P10) I did some outdoor test shots in good light on a tripod in controlled conditions to compare P52 vs P12. To be fair I set the P12 down to 3.2MP.

I assumed the images would be identical at the same resolution but in fact the P12 ones were noticeably better straight off camera, sharper mostly. So I assume Sony must have reworked the P12 lens over the P52/72 range??

I've had the P93 and P12 on test in the same week and the P12 images were at least as good as the P93. In fact the P93 seemed to sufer from more "blurring" of grass and pet hair etc that others mention with the W1 and P100...wonder if it has a similar noise reduction system?

And comparing the P73 to P72....isn't the P73 a 4MP camera? Or were you comparing shots with the P73 set to 3.2MP?

Not trying to be difficult, but just want to understand the real truth behind the differences we see.

David


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Old Oct 9, 2004, 4:38 AM   #17
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I was comparing low light shots between the P72 (at 3MP) and P73 (at 4MP). The P72 is such a poor performer. Even under well lit conditions, the P72 has a lot of noise compared to the P73. This is when you view it in actual size.
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Old Oct 9, 2004, 7:57 AM   #18
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ok, so overall,

how is the p10 picture quality vs the W1 and the P100 ?
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Old Oct 9, 2004, 12:28 PM   #19
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Cybershot455 wrote:
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blr,

I don't think any of the recent Sony compact Cybershots are known for suffering excess purple fringing.

I have a brilliant *real life* test of purple fringing in the back garden..... and P52, P10, P93 and V1 all passed with flying colours.

In all usual situations you just don't see purple fringingwith the P10, I have around 1700 images on the PC and would know if it was an issue.

I am verysensitive to it and that is why I returned a Canon A75, it was terrible on this issue.

If the "TestBox" really does show excess fringing with the P10 then it shows how little use such minute examination of aftificial tests taken with one camera on one day are in evaluating the images you can expect.

To say there is a profound difference between the last series of Sony own lenses and the ones they make with the CZ name is too sweeping a statement.

I bet if we put a nice outdoor shot taken with W1, P100, P10, V1 etc to a blind test none of us could say for certain which came from which camera.

David



The test is usefull mostly because it puts different cameras in reproducable controlled conditions. It is very usefull to compare cameras . Whether you see fringing in real life or not depends on many things, what are your subjects, how yoy view images etc. In terms of fringing this is what the images show, a profound difference. You can clearly see purple halos on the P10 and on P93 and W1 the highlights are clean. I'm not trying to put down P10, in fact I never used one, so I wouldn't know, but I believe my eyes
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Old Oct 10, 2004, 7:54 AM   #20
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CVonV,

....comparing low light shots between the P72 (at 3MP) and P73 (at 4MP). The P72 is such a poor performer. Even under well lit conditions, the P72 has a lot of noise compared to the P73.

Interesting. Noisy low light shots were one of the thing I noticed with my first digicam 18mths ago, the P52. I was a bit taken aback how poor the parts of the image were that didn't get fully lit by the smallish flash.

Some say the Sony Cybershot older P-series are worse than others for this low light noise. To be honest I found it noticeable on most digicams and itonly "looked" better on those with softer images.

So when I upgraded this year, when I bought the P12, I accepted this as a character of digicams and allowed a bit in the budget to get a slave flash. Tested the Sonyslave and ended up with the Vivitar DF120.For all my flash/indoor needs this slave lights right into the corners and effectively means you see almostno noise.

My guess is that Sony realised a lot of their customers were taking indoor images in less than ideal light so decided a main priority for the 2004 Cybershot range was to reduce noise. It seems that they have achieved this, but at the expense of the "blurring/detail loss" some complain of when images are looked at carefully. Of course this may never be an issue with normal sized prints and full screen viewing (as opposed to 100% viewing).

I'm not saying it is wrong or makes the 2004 cameras poor performers, but to understand it as a characterenables an informed choice when buying.



blr,

....The test is usefull..because it puts different cameras in reproducable controlled conditions....Whether you see fringing in real life or not depends on many things, what are your subjects, how you view images etc. In terms of fringing this is what the images show, a profound difference. You can clearly see purple halos on the P10 and on P93 and W1 the highlights are clean. I'm not trying to put down P10, in fact I never used one, so I wouldn't know, but I believe my eyes

Fair enough if you want to determine your choice without home trial. The facts is that we have a severe test for purple fringing at the back of our place, an electric pole with cables to and from it. With the dark pole and thin black wires against the opensky it will catch out any camera prone to purple fringing to any degree. As a matter of interest have a look at the image below, it is from a well regarded camera that in my "real life" shooting produced shocking purple fringing.

On the same subject the P12 produces a perfect image at "view full size", if you zoom in beyond that you can see clear aberations either side of the wires...but not a hint of purple. Perhaps my own P12 is an exceptional sample??

On the same subject the P93 produced an even better image but I couldn't take it on the same day and, whereas the P12 and bad camera were on dull days I used the P93 on a perfect buy with clear deep blue sky...it was bound to get a better result.

As a matter of interest a quick look round the net for the P10/12 finds the comments... suffers moderate purple fringing.... thankfully free of purple fringing.... minimal purple fringing.... purple fringing not an issue.... excessive purple fringing.

It seems there is either a huge variation in cameras... or the way testers and owners see their images.



10-Dee-Q

...ok, so overall, how is the p10 picture quality vs the W1 and the P100 ?

Well read the above posts and make your own choice.

Forgetting my view which may be biased it seems you can...

Go with the older P10 and get the image quality you previously liked, and that is appreciated by myself and many reviews. You might get noisy shadows in low light without a slave flash (like many other digicams). You might stand a chance of purple fringing if you believe some sources.

Or you can go with the new generation of Cybershot compact cameras which are unlikely to show purple fringing, have smoother images in low light shadows but may lose detail due to the processing that achieves this.



David








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