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Old Jan 13, 2005, 6:52 PM   #21
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Well here's another way to put how they would pass a test and yet fail the consumer.

Canon and Nikon are going to run these tests in ideal conditions with perfectly running equipment.
Typical testing.
So they are probably passing this test. Without a problem.

Now all of a sudden you start getting units back from the field that are cooked. All need to be repaired. The propreitary board is fried. All the consumers tell service what has happened, and what they were doing when it happened.
The manufacturer doesn't know what went wrong and can't re-create the problem in the lab. The only thing they know is how much voltage the board can take and that's the part that has that funny smell coming out of it.
So what you would do then is tell the service guys to tell us consumers that the recomended voltage is 6v(12v depending on manufacturer).

The problem here that just screams at me is that they manufactures are saying a lower voltage to the service guys but not in the manual. Big clue in my eyes.
That would say the test carmeras (proto,pre-production and current production) are all passing with out a problem.
Only some are coming back from the field and no one knows what happened, or why, or if they do know what went wrong and how to fix it, it may be too late in the model run to change it. Just look at how long camera models are produced a couple of years before a model change is done. So you deal with a current problem, get a little flak from the consumers then come out with a newer model that you can now claim has everything fixed. Just look at how many products have come out saying all the problems we had in the old model are now fixed with brand new shiney model.

Isn't big business just wonderful!

We know mathimatically that if we stay within the ISO test spec our cameras should be fine. Canon and Nikon are just a little worried that not everyone is going to do that being fault equipment or over powered equipment. They have seen a problem. So alert the consumer to use some sort of safety feature.

I think that is what the tech was trying to tell me last night without coming right out and saying it.

In the basic reply to the question everyone has "How can they do this and get away with it". It's pretty easy.
It's not a function of safety so the the manufacture isn't too concerned about a major law suit and they can claim a better product with all the old problems fixed if we buy the next model.


Again isn't big business wonderful!
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Old Jan 13, 2005, 9:52 PM   #22
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Red Man

The IEC/ISO is there to ensure compatibility between manufacturers (and the consumers benefit from it) - Just ignore the camera side for a moment

Let's go onto the strobes side? OK you have a safesync; but at the safesync output you are about to hook up several vendors together to light up your studio: an Alien Bee (6V), a Metz (24V) and an older Norman Monolight(?) - Now guess what: will one safesync device protect the Alien Bee here or the highest voltage/current of any one strobe will completely overwhelm the others? :O
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Old Jan 14, 2005, 6:46 PM   #23
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Well the Safesync would protect the camera not the strobes.
If I understand how the Safesync works it is a voltage limiting device to stop higher than 6v going back into the camera.

My reason for even reply to the start of this discussion is to say yes the manufacturer can get away with this.
ISO is a broad spectrum in how to do the test. If it is like most ISO specs it will not say what the pass or fail is, just how everyone is running the test if they are an ISO rated company.

I just want people to know yes there is a chance it can happen. The mathmatic calculations are correct and according to that we shouldn't have a problem running a 24v setup.

If Canon and Nikon are recomending a lower voltage then they have seen a problem whatever it maybe. They are saying that if you use your camera to a certain spec you won't have a problem.
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Old Jan 15, 2005, 7:00 AM   #24
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Red Man wrote:
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Well the Safesync would protect the camera not the strobes.
Exactly my point!

Folks tend to be camera 'centric' - focusing on onlypart ofthe issue

Studio Strobes are like camera lenses and one can spend many time more $ here than the body itself (some heads cost even more that the lens/camera combined)! The problem is also more prevalentoverthis sidesince there's always a need for more lights, and the requirements to combine heads from various parties/vendors... including the regular external flash from the camera's maker itself!

Manufacturers are fully aware of thisproblem (and so does the ISO/IEC), the 'good' manufacturers design in this possibility -while the 'not-so-good' put a warning in their manual against such practice...

PS - wireless trigger are not immune to this problem either :idea:
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Old Jan 15, 2005, 7:04 PM   #25
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The point is the camera sync or hotshoe connected to strobes.
Flint350 was making people aware of what Canon is saying.
Nikon is saying the same thing.
I confirmed what flint350 made the comment on and I also commented on how you were correct on how the ISO spec and how the test was performed.
I also brought my knowledge in by telling people how companies can get around the ISO spec and how they can say that Canon recomends a 6v limiter on the hot shoe and Nikon recomends a 12v.
This is not a quiz on how much knowledge a person has on what would survive! It is a comment stating a fact that the manufacturers are saying how much their camera can take.

If you want to run around in circles trying to prove your point stick to the point that the discussion was started on.

By telling people that it can't happen you are possibly going to damage someones camera by telling people that their camera can take a higher voltage than what is recomended.
Yes I know it's not in the manual. My camera dealer has told me the samething about recomended voltage.

As for me I'll take the extra safety measures to protect my equipment and be done with this discussion thread.
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Old Jan 16, 2005, 1:29 AM   #26
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I've read all these posts and kind of laugh....I have worked in camera repair for over 20 years...and now work for am major photographic company second...almost first to Kodak in sales.. My old supervisor is now head of repair for Canon in Orange County California...he too laughs at all the posts here....who do you know who has damaged a camera due to an OEM over rated strobe...? Manufactures would like you to keep it under 6 volts and very little amps...I still use a so called "over amp strobe" on Canon, Fuji, and Nikon cameras....all still working....education is good...but, please be aware...manufactures...do not like returns...because of YOUR INTERNET stupidity!

Peace to all..Ross "and i don't sit downinGeorgia"...I run...
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Old Jan 16, 2005, 7:22 AM   #27
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Red Man wrote:
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The point is the camera sync or hotshoe connected to strobes.
???? :? Check the forum heading - Flash (Studio)

Why is this OK to make people aware ofa "potential" specs on the camera - and it's not OK to caution folks to do the same with their studioflashes in a Studio forum?

Aren'teveryone herenot exceeding the voltage 'limit' as well on the strobes when they sync different heads with various voltage/current levels together?- which is what I was trying to convey...




BTWspeaking of Kodak: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/servi.../tib4378.jhtml
... their camera's maximum voltage is 500V - but they too recommend6V!!! I kind of laugh too :lol::-):lol::-)

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Old Jan 16, 2005, 7:56 AM   #28
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NHL
Sorry for taking the comment the wrong way, you are correct in wanting to warn others of another potential problem.

I appologize.

My internet stupidity is signing off.

See ya.
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Old Jan 16, 2005, 8:09 AM   #29
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No problem - We're all here to helpone another

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Old Jan 16, 2005, 1:36 PM   #30
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Like I said..work in camera repair and don't see this problem as a problem with todays strobes....some people spend far too much time in front of the computer and could do better by getting out and taking some pictures...LOL:?
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