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-   -   [Recovered Thread: 80442] (https://forums.steves-digicams.com/what-camera-should-i-buy-80/%5Brecovered-thread-80442%5D-78473/)

guillermovilas Jan 21, 2006 10:26 AM

I`m about to buy my first DSLR and the KM 5D was high on my list but since the news came out that KM are going to stop making cameras and that Sony will take over what is left of theyre technology and are going to be responsible for servicing KM hardware.

I`m really hesitating,what is going to happen with the KM lenses....or are there going to be only Sony lenses in the futur ?

Maybe i should get an Olympus E-500 or Nikon D50...i cannot make up my mind so can someone help me ?

RacingManiac Jan 21, 2006 11:48 AM

What I feel about it is this, being an existing 5D owner:

Lenses: You are not going to lack these until you get to the more extreme model like the ever waiting $1800+ SSM lenses. Regular KM lenses ae still out there, be it as used or new. Prices don't seem to be changing post announcement. And used or new you can find a wide range from Macro to long telephoto. New models of lenses though is probably going to be an issue. When Sony do come out with a KM-mount camera, the body will probably take any lens you have to that point, so you probably will have an upgrade path. But new Sony lens being compatible to older KM body is not so certain, IMO.

Warranty service: If they are still selling these they should probably still be responsible to servicing them. And there are extended warranties services out there. Unless KM really messed up on their transitional period, warranty SHOULD NOT be a problem. My finger is crossed on that too....

Generally though, if you are not that worried about the small points, and you probably should be since regardless its quite a bit of money involved, I'd weigh out your situation then decide whether you'll be comfortable buying it. The camera is excellent, where it is stronger than the competitor(AS, price, ISO noise...etc) doesn't change because of the announcement. But the current situation will obviously influence anyone's decision.

tclune Jan 21, 2006 12:02 PM

I think you should reasonably expect the price to drop significantly from the current "good buy" price now. If it does, your increased risk will be reflected in the reduced price. I certainly wouldn't pay the same price as before KM got out of the business. If the price doesn't go down by at least 20-25%, I would pass on it as overpriced. Otherwise, it's a reasonable price and just a question of how you feel about owning a discontinued brand.

ellover009 Jan 21, 2006 12:33 PM

Sony got all the left over parts from konica minlota, so sony's new DSLR are gonna have mounts compatible with konica minolta's lenses, so if it's lens wise u'll have no problem, they will alwasys have new ones coming from sony after spring 06. Warantee wise i'll be sketchy, I don't care what they say I would be pissed if i bought one had it for 2month and have a part go bad and having to pay outta pocket. Since U say I'll be ur first dslr I can immagine u don't have piles of funds to invest in photography equipment ex $1,500 on a lens, Some of us average ppl don't have that kinda dough or we don't make a profit from photography to justify the cost, this is considering if u come from an average joe perspective. I been looking into my first DSLR, I been looking at the canon rebel xt and the nikon D50 still having trouble deciding but i'll prob stick with the 350D aka rebel xt, reasons It's the smallest (these are tough times and if u shoot stuff with a bigger camera they see u as a security problem aka terrorist). I also wanna make big picture, really big ones so 8.2 mp helps altho not that big difference since the nikon D50 is a high end 6mp and the canon is 8.2 mp not that much difference unless u really plan to blow up pictures. Another reason is my boss is also getting a canon dslr so i'll prob be able to borrow some of his lens. My last reason is that I don't have to compromise too many features, is something I can grow with and get better over time, Canon will still be here a long time from now.

[email protected] Jan 21, 2006 9:58 PM

The KM 5D is a relatively inexpensive DSLR, and with a few lenses, you'll have a "kit".

Second hand KM lenses can be found plentyful and quite cheaply now.

Maybe later you might upgrade to another camera, maybe a Sony (same mount), or to another manufacturer.

Yes, your investment in KM lenses wouldn't come with you if you upgraded, but what the heck, you could keep your "kit" or sell it tosomeone else.

The NIkon is a really nice camera if you're into sports photography.

The KM 5D is an inexpensive, but very good entry level DSLR, with anti-shake if you're interested in that feature.

The Olympus is inexpensive and sells as a kit with some very nice lenses.

What bothers me about the Olympus is that the reviews are saying it has poor low light characterisits (at ISO's higher than 400).

The Rebel XT should be another "contender" on your list. 8mp CMOS is sensor, same as in the Canon 20D (semi-pro model). More expensive mid level DSLR.

I wouldn't worry about warrantees and all that stuff. If the cam works in the first week, you'll probably be good with it for the next 20 years.

This would be the thinking I'd have for the cameras mentioned:

- Low priced nice intro DSLR -> go for the KM 5D.

- Into sports photography -> go for the Nikon D50.

- Into general photography, more than an intro budget, go for the Rebel XT.

-- Terry





Magnum Jan 22, 2006 12:53 AM

[email protected] wrote:
Quote:

Second hand KM lenses can be found plentyful and quite cheaply now.

The NIkon is a really nice camera if you're into sports photography.

The KM 5D is an inexpensive, but very good entry level DSLR, with anti-shake if you're interested in that feature.

This would be the thinking I'd have for the cameras mentioned:

- Low priced nice intro DSLR -> go for the KM 5D.

- Into sports photography -> go for the Nikon D50.

- Into general photography, more than an intro budget, go for the Rebel XT.

-- Terry

Quote:

What are good places to locate used KM lens? Are models suitable for low-light photography likely to be available used?
Quote:

I thought the anti-shake would make the KM 5Dthe better choice for sports photography-- In my case,hoping to capturewrestling in a gym without blurry images.Isthis the type of sportthat youwould prefer the Nikon?Whatare the reasons?
Quote:

Thanks in advance,
Quote:

Scott



[email protected] Jan 22, 2006 9:36 AM

Here's five pages of used KM lenses at B&H photo video:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...mp;Submit.y=10

I like the Nikons because they can do flash synchro up to 1/500th.

My Canon 20D can only synch flash up to 1/250th.

So, if I wanted to "freeze" that action at 1/500th and blow in some fill flash, "fuggetaboutit" on the Canon, but you can still do it with the Nikon D50.

As for antishake and sports, I have no experience with it. Some people say it doesn't help you with moving subjects.

My understanding is antishake is good for low light situations, but I don't know how it will work out if the subject is moving rapidly or if you are panning as you take the shot. Somebody else on this forum can comment on that.

If your shooting sports indoors where light is low, the biggest determning factor (for me) in looking at a DSLR is it's low light (ie high ISO) performance.

The Canon 20D has pretty good performance at ISO3200. With a little noise reduction, I can get passable pictures.

You could probably get by with KM 5D, Rebel XT or the D50 for sports, but the 1/500th flash synchro is a very nice feature to have.

-- Terry



Magnum Jan 22, 2006 12:42 PM

What is the benefit of flash syncho up to 1/500th? Can you explain this or direct me to a source that I can read up on it? I thought I would be out of distance for a flash, at 40-50 feetfrom subjects, but have been learning that with a high ISO maybe I can use a flash at these distances.

Thanks,

Scott

guillermovilas Jan 22, 2006 1:11 PM

What would be better :

Buying the DSLR body only with a top notch lens or a few good second hand lenses or buying the body with it`s kit lenses.

By the way which one has the best kit lens around ?

Nikon 18-55mm or Olympus 14-45mm or KM 5D 18-75mm ?

E.T Jan 22, 2006 1:12 PM

Magnum wrote:
Quote:

I thought I would be out of distance for a flash, at 40-50 feet from subjects, but have been learning that with a high ISO maybe I can use a flash at these distances.
You don't need so high ISO for those, just good flash and fast lens. (not some F5-F6 lens)

Steven R Jan 22, 2006 1:41 PM

IMHO, from my experience,it's hard to beat the Olympus kit lens; and the more expensive Oly lens are second to none. (the 14-54mm zoom is absolutely superb)

guillermovilas Jan 22, 2006 3:16 PM

Ok but the 14-54mm isn`t the kit lens that comes with the E-500,it`s the 14-45mm.

As a matter of fact i could buy the E-500 with both 14-45mm and 40-150mm lenses for a good price but are these really good ?

My other worry is that Olympus don`t make lenses with IS....wouldn`t that be a problem for good sharp zoom pics ?
The E-500 is also more sensitive to noise......it`s a pity because it`s the camera that felt the best in my hand....it feels perfect...i need some extra convincing.

Looking at the reviews and the pics samples...the Olympus E-500looked better then the D50 Nikon and 5D KM

[email protected] Jan 22, 2006 6:50 PM

TAke a look at the E-500 pictures at high ISO's.



Steven R Jan 22, 2006 8:32 PM

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_...0_samples.html

Noise at higher ISOs of 800 - 1600 can be found on any camera; but it cleans up well with software. I like Neat Image, but there are plenty of software programs that handles the noise of high ISO images from any camera.

(When I used to shoot high speed 35 mm images, you always got a lot of grain. It is so much easier today to clean up an image with digital. )

Anyway, under what kind of conditions do you do most of your photography?



Magnum Jan 22, 2006 8:42 PM

[email protected] wrote:
Quote:

So, if I wanted to "freeze" that action at 1/500th and blow in some fill flash, "fuggetaboutit" on the Canon, but you can still do it with the Nikon D50.

-- Terry
I'm embassarred that missedthis point when I posed my additional (unnecessary) question. Sorry. Thanksfor the help.

Scott

Magnum Jan 22, 2006 8:43 PM

E.T wrote:
Quote:

Magnum wrote:
Quote:

I thought I would be out of distance for a flash, at 40-50 feetfrom subjects, but have been learning that with a high ISO maybe I can use a flash at these distances.
You don't need so high ISO for those, just good flash and fast lens. (not some F5-F6 lens)
E.T.

Thanks,

Scott

guillermovilas Jan 23, 2006 1:49 AM

Well i do a lot of pics at night or indoors where light is low....ISO senssitivity is therefeore very important....i don`t want to be carrying a tripod everywhere.
I know that it is possible to correct with neat image but when you make hundreds of pics which need retouching this can be pretty much of a problem.

Sensitivity seems to be much better with the Nikon D50 and pretty much perfect with KM 5D and Canon XT Rebel

rjseeney Jan 23, 2006 6:33 AM

guillermovilas wrote:
Quote:

I know that it is possible to correct with neat image but when you make hundreds of pics which need retouching this can be pretty much of a problem.

Sensitivity seems to be much better with the Nikon D50 and pretty much perfect with KM 5D and Canon XT Rebel
Regardless of which camera you choose, you will need to use noise reduction software on just about every image taken with ISO's above 400, as there will be some noise present.

Steven R Jan 23, 2006 11:43 AM

Rjseeney's previouscommentis right. No matter which dSLR you pick, you will be doing post processing on your PC, not only for noise, but things like contrast and saturation, etc. We all have our preferences for what the final photo should be, and with the software, we can easily get it right. Even with a lot of photos, it's not a problem however. Good software programs like Neat Image store a profile of your camera model, and you can batch process numerous photos at the same time. It's easy and relatively fast. I actually do less post processing with my Oly than with some other brands I own (Sony & Fuji). IMHO the Oly colors are the most natural straight from the camera.

[email protected] Jan 23, 2006 12:40 PM

True that noise is present above ISO400, but I'm so used to it, I don't even worry about it.

If you're shooting in RAW format, you can apply noise suppression in batch when processing your photos to JPEG format.

My Canon 20D produces acceptable photos at ISO3200, whereas I've seen other cams, especially point and shoots, that create Halloween images above ISO400.

Terry



rjseeney Jan 23, 2006 2:40 PM

I didn't mean to imply that noise processing was problematic. Batch processing using preset profiles are just part of my regular workflow (even for images shot at 200 or 400) and don't really add any additional time to the process. I just wanted the OP to realize that DSLR's are not completely noise free and require some post processing.

guillermovilas Jan 24, 2006 2:25 AM

So if i understand well you all think that i shouldn`t worry too much about noise levels from one camera to the other but more about how the camera handles or feels.

The Olympus E-500 feels so good in my hand and looking at the reviews i like the results (probably because of it`s 8M/Pixels).
Can someone tell me if the kit lenses are any good >>14-45mm & 40-150mm
or should i buy the body and lenses apart.

With the Km 5D i should be able to keep the noise lower thanks to it`s IS but i`m a bit scared of the customer service with the shift to Sony services.

JohnG Jan 24, 2006 6:43 AM

guillermovilas wrote:
Quote:

So if i understand well you all think that i shouldn`t worry too much about noise levels from one camera to the other but more about how the camera handles or feels.
Oh, I'm going to have to jump in and disagree with this. Yes, all DSLRS are going to need some noise reduction at high ISOs. But, noise reduction is just something that attempts to correct an image problem. Look at it this way. If you take a picture and it is underexposed by 1/3 of a stop in one camera. Now you take the same picture in another camera and it's underexposed by a full stop. Both images can be corrected in software, but the one underexposed by a full stop is going to suffer more image degradation. The same is true with noise reduction.

I would say your above statement were true if you were 90% going to be shooting ISO 400 or lower. I think when you get into ISO 800 and 1600 for a lot of work you want a camera with better high ISO performance. I think if you took ISO 1600 pictures from all 3 cameras in a real situation (low light dark background - not a nice up-close bright colored subject) and cleaned up all 3 with noise reduction the Olympus picture would look decidedly worse. Now, I'm sure everyone has a great high ISO picture to show. I shoothigh school football - low light, ISO 1600, 3200 on my 20d. And, I canASSUREyou - a picture taken at ISO 1600and run through noise reduction will NOT look as good as a picture taken at ISO 400. Detail will be lost. It gets worse if the picture is either cropped or was underexposed and needs to be brightened up in post processing. So while noise reduction software is very good (I use it a lot) - it cannot replace a cleaner image coming out of the camera.

So, if you require high ISO frequently I think the Olympus is the worst choice. If you don't require it frequently then don't let it dominate your selection process. In either case, ergonomics is very important. So if you like the features of the Oly and don't shoot high ISO - that's the camera for you.

rjseeney Jan 24, 2006 6:47 AM

guillermovilas wrote:
Quote:

So if i understand well you all think that i shouldn`t worry too much about noise levels from one camera to the other but more about how the camera handles or feels.
For the most part yes...however some cameras are worse than others and the more noise reduction you apply, the softer the detail becomes in the image. Because of the smaller sensor, cameras that use the 4/3 system (like Olympus) naturally have more noise and have worse performance at higher ISOs (although still better than P&S cameras).
Quote:

The Olympus E-500 feels so good in my hand and looking at the reviews i like the results (probably because of it`s 8M/Pixels).
Can someone tell me if the kit lenses are any good >>14-45mm & 40-150mm
or should i buy the body and lenses apart.

The Oly kit lenses are very good, maybe the best kit lenses available for any DSLR. In general, all Oly lenses are excellent....and very expensive. They also don't have the 3rd party support that the big 3 have (Canon, Nikon and Minolta)..thus they don't have as many less expensive lens options.
Quote:

With the Km 5D i should be able to keep the noise lower thanks to it`s IS but i`m a bit scared of the customer service with the shift to Sony services.

Yes and no. At comparable ISO's noise will be similiar, although because of anti-shake you may be able to get away with using lower ISO's is some situations. Once again, I wouldn't worry about service issues. If you really worried, you can always purchase a 3 rd party warranty.

JimC Jan 24, 2006 7:27 AM

Sony and Konica Minolta had already announced plans to produce Sony branded DSLR models this year that would use Maxxum/Dynax lenses.

The difference is that now KM is selling some of their assets to Sony, and is exiting this market. Sony will also take over service.

The announcements indicate that KM is still going to be manufacturing DSLR models for Sony. So, any work in that area should continue to progress.

I'll tell you one reason Sony may want to produce DSLR models that use the Maxxum/Dynax Lens Mount:

16 Million Lenses -- that is how many Maxxum/Dynax lenses Minolta produced since introducing this lens mount in 1985 (beginning with the Minolta Maxxum 7000, the world's first Autofocus SLR).

That's a lot of lenses in the market, owned by a lot of potential DSLR buyers (and that's not counting third party lenses from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Vivitar and others that are available in Maxxum mount).


Of course, there's also Anti-Shake. ;-)

A KM 5D with Anti-Shake (that works with all lenses, including bright primes), combined with ISO speeds up to ISO 3200 (missing in some entry level models like the Nikon D50 and Canon Rebel XT), would be hard to beat in low light.


[email protected] Jan 24, 2006 11:24 AM

KM should have come out with the 5D before the 7D.

I had Minolta lenses, but I opted for the 20D over the 7D, and shifted my investment to Canon.

Had Minolta announced an entry level DSLR first, I'd probably be shooting with Minolta right now.

It's true that there are 16M Minolta lenses out there, but my guess they are mostly owned by amateur photogs, whereas the die hard pro's were into Nikon and Canon.

So I think KM blew it by not entering the market early with something that could have sapped Digital Rebel sales.

As well, Nikon came to the market late with the D50.

So it doesn't suprise me thatKM gave up the DSLR market.

Probably going ot be a big DSLR shootout between Nikon, Canon and Sony now, with everyone else being marginal players.

I wonder if Sony will go the way of SIGMA and their digital offerings.

I figured Sony would be content with the amateur point and shoot market, as there's money to be made there. It seems strange to me that Sony would want to compete in the DSLR market with a KM mount. I think their too late.

Hmmm.


-- Terry


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