Steve'sDigicams

Monza76 · Aug 31, 2006, 8:49 PM

rjseeney wrote:

Quote:

Wow!!! Some of these recent threads have gotten a bit lengthy with alot of info passed along, alot of reviews refered to, alot of tests quoted and many opinions expressed. And we are exactly where we started....no clear winner, no clear best camera. The reason is because there isn't. Those reviews and tests are subjective. You can't do reasonable comparisons because there are too many variables that go into the final image, many of which have little to do with the camera body itself (the lens, post work, even the monitor YOU are using to read/look at the review). Sure you can get an idea, but the differences are minute. These tests aren't absolute. It takes more than a week or a month (or however long reviewers get with the camera) to learn all the ins and outs about how to get the most out of it. And certainly, if you read enough reviews, you will see conclusions proclaiming each camera to be the best. Just look at the cover of Pop Photography every month. Most users will never be able to (or even want to) get the very best out of it, and are more than most people will ever need. All of this coupled with the fact that most users are fanatical about their gear, and it's easy to see why the water is so muddy.

I still say you must go out and handle each camera to see how it feels and how easy it is for you to use. A camera that is uncomfortable or not easy to use will not get used often. Reviews cannot tell you how a camera feels to you, and neither can I. The differences really are minute...every experienced user that frequents this forum has said this (many, many, many times). At this level of camera, results depend on the user, not the camera. And what is easiest to use (for you, not the reviewers) will yield the best results.

Well said.

Ira

mtclimber · Aug 31, 2006, 8:59 PM

Congratulations,rjseeney-

I am with you 110%. There is no so called ideal DSLR, or even a P&S camera, only the camera that feels right in your hands, and that takes the photos that you like, might be the ideal camera for you.

Please take a look at the attached photo. You will find, if you pull up the EXIF data that it is an existing light photo taken inside, with no flash using a LESS than $200 P&S camera. As you have often said, the quality of the photo has more to do with the photographer than the camera.

We can argue, excuse me, debate with active posters who have never owned a DSLR camera, endlessly, but at the end of the day or the end of the thread, it is all about the photo, IMHO. But in the final analysis, it might have a good deal more to do with technique, than the camera. What do you think?

MT

Monza76 · Aug 31, 2006, 11:39 PM

Pixel Peepers of the world unite - and then go start your own forum where you can quote stats all day long. I'm with Sarah, lets go get some pictures.

My advice to those of you who are looking for a dSLR, they are all just excellent picture takers, now go try some on and if it fits wear it home. Right now ergonomics is probably the biggest factor left. Each brand has its particular claim to fame so choose based on what fits your purpose, what fits your budget and, as I already said, what fits your hands.

And then go take some pictures.

Ira

meanstreak · Aug 31, 2006, 11:59 PM

rjseeney wrote:

Quote:

Wow!!! Some of these recent threads have gotten a bit lengthy with alot of info passed along, alot of reviews refered to, alot of tests quoted and many opinions expressed. And we are exactly where we started....no clear winner, no clear best camera. The reason is because there isn't. Those reviews and tests are subjective. You can't do reasonable comparisons because there are too many variables that go into the final image, many of which have little to do with the camera body itself (the lens, post work, even the monitor YOU are using to read/look at the review). Sure you can get an idea, but the differences are minute. These tests aren't absolute. It takes more than a week or a month (or however long reviewers get with the camera) to learn all the ins and outs about how to get the most out of it. And certainly, if you read enough reviews, you will see conclusions proclaiming each camera to be the best. Just look at the cover of Pop Photography every month. Most users will never be able to (or even want to) get the very best out of it, and are more than most people will ever need. All of this coupled with the fact that most users are fanatical about their gear, and it's easy to see why the water is so muddy.

I still say you must go out and handle each camera to see how it feels and how easy it is for you to use. A camera that is uncomfortable or not easy to use will not get used often. Reviews cannot tell you how a camera feels to you, and neither can I. The differences really are minute...every experienced user that frequents this forum has said this (many, many, many times). At this level of camera, results depend on the user, not the camera. And what is easiest to use (for you, not the reviewers) will yield the best results.

On the money... I couldn't said it better if I practiced it for a week.

meanstreak · Sep 1, 2006, 12:15 AM

mtclimber wrote:

Quote:

Congratulations,rjseeney-

I am with you 110%. There is no so called ideal DSLR, or even a P&S camera, only the camera that feels right in your hands, and that takes the photos that you like, might be the ideal camera for you.

Please take a look at the attached photo. You will find, if you pull up the EXIF data that it is an existing light photo taken inside, with no flash using a LESS than $200 P&S camera. As you have often said, the quality of the photo has more to do with the photographer than the camera.

We can argue, excuse me, debate with active posters who have never owned a DSLR camera, endlessly, but at the end of the day or the end of the thread, it is all about the photo, IMHO. But in the final analysis, it might have a good deal more to do with technique, than the camera. What do you think?

MT

I have even taken some good photos with my camcorder. It's only 3 megapixel, but in a pinch it does the trick. I'll bet if I posted some of those photos, people would never guess they were shot from camcorder.

Yes it is all about the technique, good lighting, learningthe quirks of the bodies and lenses we choose. In the right hands some of the so called junk lensescan be taught to perform well. A great lens makesthe job easier and maximizes a photographer's options and opportunities.

Flynn · Sep 1, 2006, 12:20 AM

Friends, sorry about interrupting your interesting discussion but I would like to ask second tele-lens for pentax.
1.Sigma Zoom Telephoto 70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF
2.Pentax SMCP-DA 50-200mm f/4-5.6 ED Auto Focus Telephoto Zoom Lens
3.Sigma Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF SLR
4.Tamron Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR LD Aspherical IF Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax
5.Pentax Zoom Telephoto SMCP-FA J 75-300mm f/4.5-5.8 AL Autofocus Lens

Actually, after doing some reasearch I narrowed my choice to #1 and #2. Which one is better?

Monza76 · Sep 1, 2006, 12:32 AM

Flynn wrote:

Quote:

Friends, sorry about interrupting your interesting discussion but I would like to ask second tele-lens for pentax.
1.Sigma Zoom Telephoto 70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF
Good choice, nice range and lots of good comments.
2.Pentax SMCP-DA 50-200mm f/4-5.6 ED Auto Focus Telephoto Zoom Lens
All users report this to be a truly amazing lens for the price, the equal of much more expensive lenses. The drawback is that it only goes to 200mm while all the others go to 300.
3.Sigma Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF SLR
Lots of optical compromises here but a fantastic range. From what I have read the Tamron may be slightly better optically. These are nice lenses to own but will not prove to be as consistently sharp as the 50-200mm Pentax (or even the 70-300mm Sigma)
4.Tamron Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR LD Aspherical IF Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax
Like I said in #3, lenses with this much zoom range may not be quite as sharp but they sure are convenient. (personally I would go with a smaller range)
5.Pentax Zoom Telephoto SMCP-FA J 75-300mm f/4.5-5.8 AL Autofocus Lens
This is a rather cheaply built lens, optically is is probably near the equal of the Sigma 70-300mm but not up to the 50-200mm DA lens.

Actually, after doing some reasearch I narrowed my choice to #1 and #2. Which one is better?
Unless you need the extra reach of 300mm I would choose #2, but go with the Sigma if you like to do wildlife, every mm counts in that area. Most of us can rarely tell the difference between the output from two different lenses unless one is not very good and the other is exceptional, and these lenses are close in optical quality.

Quote:

Whatever choice you make, have some fun and take some pictures.

Quote:

Ira

gaggu · Sep 1, 2006, 1:59 AM

I can live with that :idea:

Monza76 wrote:

Quote:

My advice to those of you who are looking for a dSLR, they are all just excellent picture takers, now go try some on and if it fits wear it home. Right now ergonomics is probably the biggest factor left. Each brand has its particular claim to fame so choose based on what fits your purpose, what fits your budget and, as I already said, what fits your hands.

And then go take some pictures.

Ira

BenjaminXYZ · Sep 1, 2006, 4:01 AM

Code:

Those reviews and tests are subjective.

Tell me how they are subjective. (I meant the test).

Code:

You can't do reasonable comparisons because there are too many variables that go into the final image, many of which have little to do with the camera body itself (the lens, post work, even the monitor YOU are using to read/look at the review).

So you think those reviewersuses different monitors throughout thetest???

They also uses standard 50 mm prime lenses for testing out dSLRs. (Stopped down to the optimal sharpness values).

All the cameras were treated the same with the same softwares etc...

Code:

Sure you can get an idea, but the differences are minute.

Sometimes they aren't. Besides that, some people might be particular about minute details. Why some people complainabout the noise levels of the D70s to the D50 when the differences are so minute like you havesaid.

Code:

And certainly, if you read enough reviews, you will see conclusions proclaiming each camera to be the best.

Code:

Just look at the cover of Pop Photography every month. Most users will never be able to (or even want to) get the very best out of it, and are more than most people will ever need. All of this coupled with the fact that most users are fanatical about their gear, and it's easy to see why the water is so muddy.

Theremust be a reason why itcan beranked the best. (Considering most professional reviews are very critical).

Usually I will believe the review if it has some sort of a detailed test with it where I can judge myself. I will only believe the reviewer if he have test results to back his statements up.

Code:

I still say you must go out and handle each camera to see how it feels and how easy it is for you to use. A camera that is uncomfortable or not easy to use will not get used often. Reviews cannot tell you how a camera feels to you, and neither can I. The differences really are minute...every experienced user that frequents this forum has said this (many, many, many times). At this level of camera, results depend on the user, not the camera. And what is easiest to use (for you, not the reviewers) will yield the best results.

You know, from all the ravings about the EOS 350D's tiny grip and uncomfortable operation (if not from all the reviews as well), do we really need to be smarter to know certain facts?

Most reviews if not all states that the Nikon dSLRs are comfortable and well build with a nice grip. Sometimes they might even say things like "Puts the Canon Rebel XTand PentaxdSLR to shame" I know that is OPINION (And unnecessarily harsh), but I certainly think it was plenty informative enough to tellme a message about Nikon dSLRs (build quality/design). Can it get more obvious that that?

Same thing with the other dSLRs as well. If the camera was stated to be comfortable and pleasant to use (By a majority). It will most likely be comfortable and pleasant to use or operate.

No matter what, the review will always be the first to provide me with the initial first impression of the camera. I will always start with dpreview, then imaging resource, and so on.

Imagine coming across a review that states some issues with a camera (It can be anything), don't you think that itwill beworth noting the issue?

Reviews are nonetheless; very helpful. (At least to me).

Code:

We can argue, excuse me, debate with active posters who have never owned a DSLR camera, endlessly, but at the end of the day or the end of the thread, it is all about the photo, IMHO. But in the final analysis, it might have a good deal more to do with technique, than the camera. What do you think?

Yeah? That is why it is very important for anyone to get a camera or dSLR that fulfills his or hercriteria.

You Pentax or Minolta owners have most likely probably gotten what you had wanted, so no complains there.

TDN · Sep 1, 2006, 5:26 AM

First off: *sigh* ...

Sorry in advance, but I really need to vent here.

ok, now:

Quote:

That is why it is very important for anyone to get a camera or dSLR that fulfills his or her criteria.

Benjamin, look. Do yourself a favour and get the newest, most advanced camera you can buy. Either a D200, D2X or Canon 1D or something...because none of the entry level DSLRs will ever meet your "needs".

Can't afford one? Well then face the facts and buy yourself a good camera to take photographs with.
And here's an update: every entry level dslr in the market today is a good camera.
All you really need to find, is the one you're most comfortable with.

The Romans had a saying: "Qui vult caedere canem, facile invenit fuftem"
"Whoever wants to beat a dog, easily finds a stick to do it"
You're always going to find flaws in a camera. That's simply because we don't live ina perfect world.
All of this time reading reviews you should be out there, with your camera in hand and capturing what only your eye can see.
Trust me, you've done your research, you know all the facts & figures. Now start taking photos.

The choice is up to you, are you going to be a "DSLR-owner" or a photographer?

TDN

Aug 31, 2006, 8:59 PM	#52
mtclimber Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 18,143	Congratulations,rjseeney- I am with you 110%. There is no so called ideal DSLR, or even a P&S camera, only the camera that feels right in your hands, and that takes the photos that you like, might be the ideal camera for you. Please take a look at the attached photo. You will find, if you pull up the EXIF data that it is an existing light photo taken inside, with no flash using a LESS than $200 P&S camera. As you have often said, the quality of the photo has *more to do* with the photographer than the camera. We can *argue, excuse me, debate* with active posters who have never owned a DSLR camera, endlessly, but at the end of the day or the end of the thread, it is all about the photo, IMHO. But in the final analysis, it might have a good deal more to do with technique, than the camera. What do you think? MT Attached Images

Sep 1, 2006, 4:01 AM	#59
BenjaminXYZ Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 788	Code: Those reviews and tests are subjective. Tell me how they are subjective. (I meant the test). Code: You can't do reasonable comparisons because there are too many variables that go into the final image, many of which have little to do with the camera body itself (the lens, post work, even the monitor YOU are using to read/look at the review). So you think those reviewersuses different monitors throughout thetest??? They also uses standard 50 mm prime lenses for testing out dSLRs. (Stopped down to the optimal sharpness values). All the cameras were treated the same with the same softwares etc... Code: Sure you can get an idea, but the differences are minute. Sometimes they aren't. Besides that, some people might be particular about minute details. Why some people complainabout the noise levels of the D70s to the D50 when the differences are so minute like you havesaid. Code: And certainly, if you read enough reviews, you will see conclusions proclaiming each camera to be the best. Code: Just look at the cover of Pop Photography every month. Most users will never be able to (or even want to) get the very best out of it, and are more than most people will ever need. All of this coupled with the fact that most users are fanatical about their gear, and it's easy to see why the water is so muddy. Theremust be a reason why itcan beranked the best. (Considering most professional reviews are very critical). Usually I will believe the review if it has some sort of a detailed test with it where I can judge myself. I will only believe the reviewer if he have test results to back his statements up. Code: I still say you must go out and handle each camera to see how it feels and how easy it is for you to use. A camera that is uncomfortable or not easy to use will not get used often. Reviews cannot tell you how a camera feels to you, and neither can I. The differences really are minute...every experienced user that frequents this forum has said this (many, many, many times). At this level of camera, results depend on the user, not the camera. And what is easiest to use (for you, not the reviewers) will yield the best results. You know, from all the ravings about the EOS 350D's tiny grip and uncomfortable operation (if not from all the reviews as well), do we really need to be smarter to know certain facts? Most reviews if not all states that the Nikon dSLRs are comfortable and well build with a nice grip. Sometimes they might even say things like "Puts the Canon Rebel XTand PentaxdSLR to shame" I know that is OPINION (And unnecessarily harsh), but I certainly think it was plenty informative enough to tellme a message about Nikon dSLRs (build quality/design). Can it get more obvious that that? Same thing with the other dSLRs as well. If the camera was stated to be comfortable and pleasant to use (By a majority). It will most likely be comfortable and pleasant to use or operate. No matter what, the review will always be the first to provide me with the initial first impression of the camera. I will always start with dpreview, then imaging resource, and so on. Imagine coming across a review that states some issues with a camera (It can be anything), don't you think that itwill beworth noting the issue? Reviews are nonetheless; very helpful. (At least to me). Code: We can argue, excuse me, debate with active posters who have never owned a DSLR camera, endlessly, but at the end of the day or the end of the thread, it is all about the photo, IMHO. But in the final analysis, it might have a good deal more to do with technique, than the camera. What do you think? Yeah? That is why it is very important for anyone to get a camera or dSLR that fulfills his or hercriteria. You Pentax or Minolta owners have most likely probably gotten what you had wanted, so no complains there.

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Aug 31, 2006, 11:39 PM	#53
Monza76 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 4,154	Pixel Peepers of the world unite - and then go start your own forum where you can quote stats all day long. I'm with Sarah, lets go get some pictures. My advice to those of you who are looking for a dSLR, they are all just excellent picture takers, now go try some on and if it fits wear it home. Right now ergonomics is probably the biggest factor left. Each brand has its particular claim to fame so choose based on what fits your purpose, what fits your budget and, as I already said, what fits your hands. And then go take some pictures. Ira

Sep 1, 2006, 12:20 AM	#56
Flynn Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 11	Friends, sorry about interrupting your interesting discussion but I would like to ask second tele-lens for pentax. 1.Sigma Zoom Telephoto 70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF 2.Pentax SMCP-DA 50-200mm f/4-5.6 ED Auto Focus Telephoto Zoom Lens 3.Sigma Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DG Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF SLR 4.Tamron Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR LD Aspherical IF Macro Autofocus Lens for Pentax 5.Pentax Zoom Telephoto SMCP-FA J 75-300mm f/4.5-5.8 AL Autofocus Lens Actually, after doing some reasearch I narrowed my choice to #1 and #2. Which one is better?