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Old Oct 16, 2006, 11:34 AM   #21
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rjseeney wrote:
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The D80 is not in the same class as the A100, or even the 400d. It is at least a half step above, and certainly not entry level.
I think this is a fairly accurate portrayal - and it's born out by the price point of the camera. I'm not sure why there's a backlash from Canonites about reviews claiming the D80 is a better camera (from a features standpoint) than the 400D. They really aren't the same market. Once again, Canon and Nikonhave interlacing model structures. IMO, you have Canon 350, Nikon D50, Canon 400, Nikon D80, Canon 30D (which is now pushed, and even passed by the D80 in certain areas) - a 5D to D200 comparison is a little trickier as I believe there is where you start seeing divergent market segments.

In all honesty I find it amusing that some Canonites and Nikonians are obsessed with the idea of their system 'being the best' and coming out with a "'xyz' beater" model. The reactions are comically predictable:

1. The reviews are BS - our camera system has the better new model

or

2. Our guy dropped the ball. I'm selling all my lenses at pennies on the dollar because Canon/Nikon has dropped the ball.

Most of these such statements made by people that just bought one model 2 months ago and don't even come close to maxing out the capabilities of the body they have.

In the end I think Phil summed it up nicely - the Nikon has more features, the buyer has to decide if they're worth the extra $130 or so.

To some, they are. To others they're not.


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Old Oct 16, 2006, 12:00 PM   #22
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I don't see that the difference in image quality is being minimized. To my eyes, it really is minimal. The D80 shows less noise at ISO 1600; but when you blow it up and examine carefully, you see the XTi preserves very slightly more detail. It's really 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I might prefer the XTi on this, but it's really splitting hairs. There's no comparison with the difference in the Sony Alpha.

To quote another reviewer who compared all three at ISO 1600:

http://dcresource.com/reviews/canon/...ew/index.shtml

In regard to the night scene at ISO 1600:
At this setting the XTi does a little better than the Nikon D80, and leagues better than the Sony Alpha DSLR-A100 (in my opinion, of course).
And in regard to the studio scene:
The comparisons I made to the Nikon D80 and Sony A100 are still accurate here: the XTi beats the D80 by a hair (and some may disagree with this), and the DSLR-A100 by a mile.
Obviously, alot of the reason for Phil's preference for the D80 is ergonomic. This can be an individual thing; some may prefer the feel of the smaller Canon, and not be bothered as much by the viewfinder. But he did give other reasons as well:
The D80 also gives you the surprisingly useful configurable automatic ISO, spot metering, a wider range of customization, wireless flash control, advanced battery information and in-camera retouching.
I can't say that there's any bias or pettiness in mentioning these differences. They might be important to others as well. As for controls, handling, and ergonomics, they were also the main reasons this same reviewer prefered the Sony H2 superzoom over the more popular Canon S3. So I don't think it's a matter of prefer one brand over another.

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Old Oct 16, 2006, 8:48 PM   #23
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Wow, there sure are a lot of opinions. Definitly an interesting read. I bit the bullet today and ordered the Canon XTi from amazon today. Also ordered the 28-135 IS USM canon lens. Ditched the kit lens. That still leaves a hole in the wide angle and telescopic range, but it should let me make do for awhile.

So the reasons I chose the XTi, first off I have to say, my viewing of the cameras might have been a bit biased. The Canon was on and working in the display, but didnt have a lens. The a100 which I dont really want, but decided to look at was on and had a lens. Finally the Nikon didnt have a battery in it(they say someone must have stole it) and they were totally sold out of them so they couldnt even pull one from a box.

1) The size, I guess I should say, I am a woman on the petite size and the Nikon actually felt a bit on the big size. Buttons seemed to be just that tad to far away for true comfort, while the Canon, while the grip is a drop on the small side, it fit almost perfectly in my hands and the buttons were very comfortable to navigate. With no prior experience with any Canon camera I was able to quickly move through all the different settings and change things easily and quickly. Nikon I can't say since it was off, and the Sony sucked. I thought the wheel navigation for the iso and other setting was annoying, you still had to use buttons and it was slow, I guickly grew fustrated and gave up on it.

2)The weight, the Nikon without the battery seemed heavier then the canon. Like I said petite woman, and since I know the lenses are gonna add a bunch of weight to the camera, I preffered the lighter feel.

3)Finally well I do admit price had a big factor in it. It is a two hundred dollar difference. That two hundred bucks let me get a lens with IS in it. And while that is not the biggest factor in a lens for me, it does make a difference. So in the end I will just call it fate that the battery was missing from the Nikon, and they were sold out. This way I don't know what I am missing or not missing as the case may be. Shame too, because I was really interested in what the differences would be with the viewfinder.

Anyway, now I can't wait to have it in my hands and play with it. *bounce* I hope it gets here fast. I will let you know my impressions of it after I get a chance to play.

Jamie



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Old Oct 17, 2006, 5:13 AM   #24
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I'm sure you'll be happy. Ergonomics is an important part of the equation----one that often gets ignored because folks are tangled up in slight differences of image quality or other minutae.
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Old Oct 17, 2006, 6:29 AM   #25
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Jamie,

Enjoy your new purchase. Will be looking forward to seeing some posts from you in the future.
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Old Oct 18, 2006, 1:14 PM   #26
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Awww, man! I wanted to throw Pentax K10D into the mix (or maybe even the K100D), just to get some more conversation. :lol:



I'm sure you'll enjoy the Canon. It's a fine camera, as are all in this price range, and you should have a blast playing with it. The important thing is to take some pictures and post them here so we can all obsess over the noise/sharpness/post processing, et al.



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Old Oct 18, 2006, 1:51 PM   #27
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John, are you nuts?

Nikon has a clear advantage over Canon when you actually understand technology, glass and photography.

The CMOS sensor has so much fall off at the edges it's a technological joke, CCD is technically superior as Nikon cameras illustrate.

Nikon has a better sensor, Noise is not an issue with CCD, and the camera's are better built. If anyone is considering a DSLR from strictly a technological perspective the Nikon units are clearly superior. Once you get past the technology, look at the ergonomics, amazing glass and of course the pictures. If you want some true analysis here's a link you can follow, the information is worth reading, and understanding.

http://www.naturfotograf.com/D200_rev00.html
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Old Oct 18, 2006, 3:27 PM   #28
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Billie Bob wrote:
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John, are you nuts?

Billie Bob - can you quote a specific line where you believe I gave misleading advice?

A quoted statement or statements would be nice. That way I can be sure exactly what you're talking about. This way we're sure to be discussing the same points.
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Old Oct 19, 2006, 3:40 PM   #29
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"What remains to be seen on both the XTi and D80 is how the new sensors handle noise levels. In the past, an increase in megapixels has often meant cramming more MP on the same size sensor (which is what is happening here I believe) - that has resulted in more noise at ISO 800 and above. Nikon struggled with this in their D70 and D200 cameras - both having worse high ISO noise performance than the less megapixel D50. This has been an advantage for Canon in the past couple years in that their 20d/30d (the competitor cameras to the D80's predecessor the D70) controlled noise much better. So, it will be interesting to see how both companies did incontrolling noise in these 10mp cameras.

in at least one review from Phil Askey at DPReview, these two cameras were compared head to head. Image quality and resolution were about equal in both but according to the test images posted and the reviewer's conclusions, the Canon still held the edge in high ISO noise performance and ISO 800 and 1600 although in the reviewer's words "Nikon is closing the gap"."


This what I'm referring to. These above statements are so completley wrong. The technology in a Nikon D series is so far ahead of the CMOS Canon stuff it's amazing. To make the point even more clear, stock Canon's ship with ultra cheap glass to make the price point more attractive. They do this because the sensors in the body are not as good as the Nikons and need high end glass to close the gap with a Nikon. Nikon ships decent glass and produces far superior images right out of the box. Once you add professional glass to the D series Nikon the gap widens. The sensors in the Canon have so much fall off and edge control is all part of the sensor technology.

Head to head the entry level D50 with stock Nikon glass blows the doors off the entry level Canon with it's stock lens.
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Old Oct 19, 2006, 4:54 PM   #30
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Billie Bob wrote:
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Head to head the entry level D50 with stock Nikon glass blows the doors off the entry level Canon with it's stock lens.
what does this have to do with my statements that the d70 and d200 had WORSE noise performance than the D50?

I don't think I referred to kit lenses anywhere.

So, let's stick to what I said.

So, you indicate my statement above (that the d70 and d200 have worse noise performance than the d50). Since you claim I'm wrong, show me some evidence that the statement is not true.

Second part of the statement is the Canon 20D/30D controlls noise better than the d70/d200. Again, you claim I'm totally wrong. Show me the evidence that I'm wrong.

You've called me wrong - now show me the evidence that indicates I'm wrong. I freely admit I don't use Nikon. But I haven't seen any evidence yet that disproves either of those two statements. I am completely willing to be enlightened.


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