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Old Oct 28, 2006, 2:30 PM   #61
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The fact is, the ENTIRE purpose of the concept of an SLR is so that you can view the image through the lens. The viewfinder and the lens are the two most fundamental aspects of using an SLR camera. Your cavalier dismissal of the importance of the camera's viewfinder and ergonomics, and the fact that you consider the Nikon D70s viewfinder to be "great" says more than anything I can add about the lack of practical experience and genuine understanding of the issues that you are bringing to this decision. As I said before, good luck with your decision, you will certainly need it.

And NONE of the cameras you have mentioned have any live preview capability with the LCD. If that's what you want, there are only two SLRs that offer it, the Panasonic
DMC L1 and the Olympus E-330. As someone who seems to lack a basic understanding of the purpose, or means of using an SLR viewfinder to your advantage, you might be very well served getting one of these live preview DSLRs, so you can compose on the LCD, rather than the finder. They were in fact developed for users such as yourself who are not versed in using an SLR. With live preview, you can pixel peep to your heart's content, and that may well be the best way for you personally to shoot, given your experience base.

Now before you carry on with another tirade, I am genuinely offerring you this advice in good faith. You can choose to ignore it, or take it to heart, or to insult me again. In any case, I could care less, as I am done with this dialog.


BenjaminXYZ wrote:
[quote][code]As for dSLRs, I have looked through the Nikon D70s viewfinder before and I found it great; so I don't care what the Nikon D80 has got to offer, I clearly can't justify it's extra cost over the D70s. Besides, I also cannot see any significant improvements of it over the Nikon D70s.

As I said before, there are many many other more essential things to look for than just the viewfinder. (Especially when the one on the D70s is already good enough for me
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Old Oct 28, 2006, 2:52 PM   #62
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I didn't know that TIFF was quite useless though...when we have RAW.
I didn't use the word "useless". I implied it though with a relatively strong opinion about it (I think it wastes space compared to other modes). :-)

I think you'll find very few people that would use it.

A TIFF file is uncompressed. But, it's already been processed by the camera (white balance, sharpening, saturation, etc. have already been applied).

So, the only benefit over JPEG from my perspective, is that it is uncompressed.

However, the best quality JPEG modes are so good in most models now that the extra space requirements and performance penalties shooting in TIFF make it a less desirable format (at least to me). The better jpeg modes in cameras have very little in the way of compression artifacts.

Even better, if you shoot in RAW instead, you take up less space, and you have far more flexbility later (since the raw file hasn't been processed by the camera yet). So, I don't care if a camera can store in TIFF or not.

That's my opinion. As I mentioned in a previous post, any opinon you read in the forums, is likely to be biased, including mine.

Someone else may have a different opinion. You'll need to form your own opinions, about what works best for you.

Ditto for things like the LCD. I like a good LCD (and if I can zoom in to examine fine details, great). Ditto for a decent histogram. I use mine to tweak exposure. That's a great benefit over film. I can tell in advance if I need to change something about the way I'm shooting a scene (at least to a point) versus waiting until the film is processed).

But, someone else may not care about having a decent LCD (for example, DougJGreen has a different opinion than I do).

That's OK, too. What's important to one person may not be as important to someone else.

Each user will value different features in a camera.

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Old Oct 28, 2006, 2:53 PM   #63
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The fact is, the ENTIRE purpose of the concept of an SLR is so that you can view the image through the lens. The viewfinder and the lens are the two most fundamental aspects of using an SLR camera. Your cavalier dismissal of the importance of the camera's viewfinder and ergonomics, and the fact that you consider the Nikon D70s viewfinder to be "great" says more than anything I can add about the lack of practical experience and genuine understanding of the issues that you are bringing to this decision. As I said before, good luck with your decision, you will certainly need it.
I think you are getting a bit too extreme. I get a dSLR for it's superior high ISO quality, full photographic controls, full manual controls, speed, responsiveness, robustness, and battery life etc...

If you tell me that I must get the dSLR for the viewfinder, thenI really think that you are very narrow-minded. As long as the viewfinder is adequate enough, it will be alright with me. I just won't be placing it as a means of decision making on my part.

As I have already said before, there are many other important aspects to consider.

In case you query my experience; I have shot with a D70s under dim indoor lightings before,and I found it's viewfinder perfectly alright for my composition. It is not to say that the D70s viewfinder is completely CRAP or what. In fact, I found itgood - good enough. (That is all that matters)

Code:
And NONE of the cameras you have mentioned have any live preview capability with the LCD. If that's what you want, there are only two SLRs that offer it, the Panasonic
DMC L1 and the Olympus E-330. As someone who seems to lack a basic understanding of the purpose, or means of using an SLR viewfinder to your advantage, you might be very well served getting one of these live preview DSLRs, so you can compose on the LCD, rather than the finder. They were in fact developed for users such as yourself who are not versed in using an SLR. With live preview, you can pixel peep to your heart's content, and that may well be the best way for you personally to shoot, given your experience base.

The way you have phased this post makes it all soundas ifI have detested dSLR TTL viewfinders. In fact Ihad not; Iwas only saying that I won't be putting much weight onthat oneaspectalone that's all. (& That's a big difference fromnot wanting it at all) You are also making it sound as if the viewfinder of the D70s is as bad as non usable.

__________________________________________________ __________________


I also didn't say that I wanted any live previews; I was just providing an example only: That would I just go for a live preview camera because of it's LCD. (And I said no)

I don't mind going from a live preview to a TTL viewfinder of a dSLR at all, in fact, if I have to go for a dSLR, it would most likely be having a TTL viewfinder. (And I have noissues withtheir TTL viewfinders or whatsoever)

__________________________________________________ ____________________

JimC, thanks for your new explanation above. Now I understand better about the TIFF format! :-)




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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:19 PM   #64
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I apoligize for thinking out loud, but enough is enough.

I know that no one asked me, but IMHO thisthread should be deleted as it is a complete waste of time and threads like these keep people away. Most of us with photgraphy experiance don'tcome here for stuff like this and the newbies certainly don't gain anything from the insults and bickering.


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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:23 PM   #65
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I apoligize for thinking out loud, but enough is enough.

I know that no one asked me, but IMHO thisthread should be deleted as it is a complete waste of time and threads like these keep people away. Most of us with photgraphy experiance don'tcome here for stuff like this and the newbies certainly don't gain anything from the insults and bickering.
Then clearly you don't know what is a forum for.

I come from 5 other forums, and I know what a forum is.
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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:31 PM   #66
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I've considered removing it once or twice.

But, it has some entertainment value. :-)

As for the bickering and insults... Yes, that has been a problem in this thread.

If it continues, the thread will be closed (take the hint Ben, and don't make any more personal comments towards others, even if you don't agree with their opinions about cameras or photography).


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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:43 PM   #67
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Quote:

I've considered removing it once or twice.

But, it has some entertainment value. :-)

As for the bickering and insults... Yes, that has been a problem in this thread.

If it continues, the thread will be closed (take the hint Ben, and don't make any more personal comments towards others, even if you don't agree with their opinions about cameras or photography).

OK, I shall now take back all those insults that I have made in here. I actually did not mean for them to be serious at all; I apologize.

I will never make anymore personal comments to others in here anymore.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"I am sorry for everything wrong that I have done in here just now.
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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:49 PM   #68
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Why don't the two of you PM yourselves to death...then you can say whatever you want.

the Hun


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Old Oct 28, 2006, 3:54 PM   #69
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But, it has some entertainment value
I suppose some might disagree. But, one can't deny that these threads do seem to be popular--even as a number of others with questions from members politely asking for advice and assistance can sit unaswered. And there does seem to be at least some usefull information that comes out (in between all of the bickering).

On viewfinders:
Younger eyes generally have a greater ability to adjust to lower light conditions (a larger "maximum aperture" for the pupil so to speak). So what appears too dark to some may be acceptable to others.

On Olympus:
Very nice value for an entry level camera; but limited selection or availability of entry level lenses. Very nice value in high quality mid range lenses; but not much there as far as current mid range or intermediate cameras to go with it. Perhaps the lineup will be a bit more complete in another year?

The biggest drawback for me though, with the E500, would be the lack of in camera stabilization. Martket leaders, Canon and Nikon, also lack this, but the other top challengers, Pentax and Sony, both now have it available.

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Old Oct 28, 2006, 8:24 PM   #70
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BenjaminXYZ wrote:
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I apoligize for thinking out loud, but enough is enough.

I know that no one asked me, but IMHO thisthread should be deleted as it is a complete waste of time and threads like these keep people away. Most of us with photgraphy experiance don'tcome here for stuff like this and the newbies certainly don't gain anything from the insults and bickering.
Then clearly you don't know what is a forum for.

I come from 5 other forums, and I know what a forum is.
I think you should stop presumming what people know and don't know aboutforums or anything else for that matter. I did not speak to you directly and I thank you not to address me in sucha fashion again.
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