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Old May 13, 2007, 10:59 AM   #31
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Edited in response to your last edit above. ;-)

I wouldn't personally worry about the gap. The kit lenses are an inexpensive way to get your feet wet. Then, after you use it for a while, you'll have a better idea of where you may see limitations for the type of shooting you do.


Even if we give it the benefit of the doubt at assume (perhaps wrongly) that Auto ISO is going to ISO 200 instead of 320 (and I don't know where it goes to on that Kodak), you'd still only be at around 1/30 second at ISO 1600 in the same lighting using a typical 70-300mm type lens that only has f/5.6 available.

That would imply an EV of 6 for light levels (which is typical for many interiors).

See this exposure calculator for a better understanding of the relationship between light levels (EV in the calculator), ISO speed (film speed in the calculator) and Aperture (that's the f/stop that a lens is capable of using and represents how large the iris opening is in the lens).

http://www.robert-barrett.com/photo/...alculator.html

More keepers yes. But, I wouldn't risk trying to use a lens that slow (dim) indoors if I wanted higher quality images, especially if I planned on larger print sizes (since any subject movement will be more obvious at larger sizes), not to mention the increased noise from trying to use ISO 1600. For head and shoulders type shots, blur from subject movement is more obvious. Ditto for larger print sizes.

I'd be inclined to go with a brighter lens (searching the used market to find one if budget was a big issue).

What lens? I dunno... I'd be inclined to try and find a used Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 with a Canon Solution, or a used Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8 in a Nikon solution. KEH often has the older model (non D) versions of this Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8 for around $400 used. It would not autofocus on a D40. So, a different Nikon body would be preferrable (D50, D80, used D70/D70s).

That would you out to the equivalent of a 300mm lens on a 35mm camera from an angle of view perspective. That's not as long as you're accustomed to (since that Kodak photo was taken at the equivalent of 380mm). But, the increased sharpness from faster shutter speeds would probably more than make up for the lack in focal length, and you could try to get away with using a 1.4x Teleconverter (which would lose one stop of light to f/4 using an f/2.8 lens) when lighting permits.

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Old May 13, 2007, 11:09 AM   #32
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P. S.

You're going to need a tripod, even with a brighter lens in those conditions. That's because camera shake is magnfied as focal lengths get longer. Your shutter speeds will not be fast enough to get rid of blur from camera shake without one, even if you get fast enough shutter speeds to reduce blur from subject movement.

Indoor images without a flash are tough, especially at longer focal lengths. If you can use a powerful external flash, you'd have more options. Are you permitted to use a flash? That may be another option to look at (a nice hammerhead style flash that can reach out that far).

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Old May 13, 2007, 11:14 AM   #33
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I'm making a package off amazon, and i can get the camera w/ the 18-55 kit, a fancy canon flash (all good reviews) , a slr backpach, a tripod, a card, a 75-300mm non is camera lens, and..thats it! for 1100$. I dont understand what u mean by ego. I'm just worried about the fact that im gonna be missing 55mm-75mm. I also recall seeing in a different post that since cannon has a crop factor of 1.6 (or sumthing like that) then 380mm he made into 280mm. i have abolutely no idea what this means, but it sounds interesting:O...(and cheaper:G). Please reply soon, ill keep cheking the posts for the next 30 minuts coninuously

-edit and a battery and a batter charger. And no i cant use flash in the speaking situations. would the 1.4 converter still work w/ the sigma lens in my oncdition?

The sigma lens u mentiond is far too expensive for my budget. If you take off the 75-300mm lens from my package, u knock down 180$ or so. Which leaves you w/ 280$ for a lens that would cover my situation, any other reccomendations?
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Old May 13, 2007, 11:46 AM   #34
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JimC wrote:
Quote:
He said that only 1 out of 150 photos was not blurry, using a table and self timer to get that one.

That's not very good odds, and the photo he posted a link to was taken at 1/10 second and f/3.7 using Auto ISO on a model that goes up to ISO 800 if you set it manually.

Any subject movement at all and you're going to get motion blur at 1/10 second, even if you use a tripod, especially for a head and shoulders type shot, since any movement will occur over a greater percentage of the frame compared to a wider shot.

Now, the question in my mind was the ISO speed the camera was actually using with Auto ISO. It appears that it's not being recorded in the EXIF from the photos that the OP as looked at.
I agree. Though Arficould probably improve his 1:150 keeper ratio by working on his technique (presuming that Arfiis a "he"), the higher ISO settings available on a dSLR won't go very far to make up for the dimmer lenses within his budget.

Maybe he'd be better off with a good P&S Super Zoom with Image Stabilization.

That would also handle his other requirements for his camera, and it would cost less.

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Old May 13, 2007, 11:54 AM   #35
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I was wondering if i would jsut use a 200mm lens, would i be able to crop it and get the detail and quality of an average 5MP picture (8X10)? (from a 8MP cannon rebel xt?)
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Old May 13, 2007, 12:00 PM   #36
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Keep in mind, also, if you hope to attempt some wedding work, you may encounter some lighting conditions that are even worse than that sample.

The budget 300mm and 400mm zooms give some very good results outdoors (especially when you can stop down a bit); but aren't that useful for indoor when you can't use flash. I think you're better off getting at least an f4 maximum aperture in a shorter length (and preferably f2.8 ), and don't be afraid to crop a bit.

But I don't think you will find that suitable a lens for less than about $600 new. A 300mm f2.8 though would run around $2500+ though, so you do have to make some compromises. Some examples:

http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...duct/55/cat/11
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...uct/161/cat/10
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...uct/180/cat/30
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...uct/217/cat/31
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...uct/995/cat/31
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...uct/336/cat/31
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showp...duct/52/cat/22

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Old May 13, 2007, 12:03 PM   #37
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for the wedding work im sure ill be able to use a flash. I included in my package a cannon flash unit that has all good reviews, and looks top notch. Im just wondering about my speaker situation
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Old May 13, 2007, 12:05 PM   #38
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Im was orignally wondering if i could get a prime lens that would work for 380mm requirment, then get a cheaper 75-300mm (which ill only use outdoors). Ne1 know nething about a prime lens that might work here?
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Old May 13, 2007, 12:10 PM   #39
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Arfi wrote:
Quote:
I'm making a package off amazon, and i can get the camera w/ the 18-55 kit, a fancy canon flash (all good reviews) , a slr backpach, a tripod, a card, a 75-300mm non is camera lens, and..thats it! for 1100$.
Most of these kits have low grade junk in them (flimsy tripods, non-name "slow" memory cards that they claim are "high speed", gray market gear that may not be warrantied by the manufacturer in your country, etc.). I

t's a way to make the packages look like they're worth more (since the prices they claim these add-ons are worth are usually very inflated compared to the value of the gear included).

I'd suggest looking at what a reputable vendor like http://www.bhphotovideo.com has to offer (and also check out their used department).

Quote:
I dont understand what u mean by ego.
I haven't used the word ego that I'm aware of.

Quote:
I'm just worried about the fact that im gonna be missing 55mm-75mm. I also recall seeing in a different post that since cannon has a crop factor of 1.6 (or sumthing like that) then 380mm he made into 280mm. i have abolutely no idea what this means, but it sounds interesting:O...(and cheaper:G). Please reply soon, ill keep cheking the posts for the next 30 minuts coninuously
Any lens choice is a compromise, and you don't necessarily have to fill in all of the gaps. There are other lenses available on the wide end. But, the kit lenses are relatively inexpensive and you could get a better idea of what your real needs are after using one for a while without a big loss. It sounds like your primary concern is the speaking engagements (which is where I'd suggest focusing on if that's the case for initial lens needs).

Any lens you use on an entry level DSLR model like a Rebel XTi, XT, EOS-20D, 30D, Nikon D50, D80, etc.) will appear to be approximately a focal length that's approximately 50-60% longer from an angle of view perspective, compared to the same focal length lens on a 35mm camera.

So, a 200mm lens on an entry level DSLR would give you about the same angle of view as a 300mm+ lens on a 35mm camera. Or, a 300mm lens on a entry level DSLR would give you the same angle of view that you'd have using a 450mm+ lens on a 35mm camera.

The shot you took with your Kodak was equivalent to 380mm on a 35mm camera model. That means you'd need to shoot with a lens that had a focal length of approximately 240mm on a DSLR for the same angle of view (apparent magnfication).

That's one reason I'd suggest sticking with a 200mm lens that has f/2.8 available and try to move a bit closer if you can (or crop the photo a little to get the same framing). That's because I think the faster shutter speeds from the brighter lens would give you sharper photos in the long run compared to a longer 300mm lens that's not as bright if shooting indoors without a flash.

Ideally, you'd want something like a Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 lens for even more flexibility. But, that lens would run you almost $3000. So, I'd compromise on focal length to get a brighter lens if I was on a tight budget (and I'd go used).

Quote:
And no i cant use flash in the speaking situations. would the 1.4 converter still work w/ the sigma lens in my oncdition?
It would work with a brighter Sigma lens like I mentioned (something like a Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 ). It would not work with a 75-300mm lens like you see in those kits, since they are not bright enough to use a Teleconverter with (you'd lose Autofocus and you'd end up with too much light loss to get fast enough shutter speeds).

You really don't want to use a Teleconverter at all if you can avoid it. You lose one stop of light with a 1.4x TC (that's half the light reaching the camera through the lens).

That means a lens like a Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 would behave like an f/4 lens that's 40% longer. You get a longer focal length, but it's at the expense of half of the light (f/2.8 is twice as bright as f/4, which is where you'd be using a 1.4x TC on an f/2.8 lens).

Quote:
The sigma lens u mentiond is far too expensive for my budget. If you take off the 75-300mm lens from my package, u knock down 180$ or so. Which leaves you w/ 280$ for a lens that would cover my situation, any other reccomendations?
Yes... *Slow Down*. I'd strongly suggest you *wait* until you have a better understanding of the available options before making a decision on a camera and lenses.

Why spend $1,100 for a solution that you may get blurry photos with? It's wasted money (other than the education you'll have when you realize why an f/5.6 zoom is not a good idea for existing light photos indoors without a flash due to blur from subject movement, slow autofocus, less than optimum sharpness at wide open aperture settings, etc).

Visit the Canon Lenses Forum here if you're leaning towards a Canon solution. Ask for some more opinions on alternatives, making sure they understand the lighting you plan on shooting in.

For example, there are some f/4 zooms available that are twice as bright as the lens in that Amazon kit you're looking at (there is no doubt in my mind that it would only have f/5.6 available on it's max zoom settting). If budget gets "down to the wire", that kind of solution would still be an improvement over the typical kits you see advertised.

But, if I were you on your budget, I'd be going used for the entire outfit to give me more buying power for an indoor lens solution. I'd probably go with a used EOS-20D (it's got up to ISO 3200 available, for even more flexbility), and a used zoom with f/2.8 available for your indoor speaking engagements.

I'd go with a used solution that gives me more sharper photos over a new solution that gives me more blurry photos. :-)

My biggest suggestion would be to slow down and get a better understanding of how this stuff works first (focal lengths, lens aperture ratings, etc.) so that you can make a better informed decision and not waste your money on a solution that may not be adequate, carefully considering the pros and cons of the alternatives (and any choice will be a compromise with an $1,100 budget and your desired shooting conditions).

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Old May 13, 2007, 12:21 PM   #40
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For your podium shots you might be able to get that done with an older used manual focus lens. I see some here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/3...mm_Lenses.html

I'm not sure about using older manual focus lenses on Canon though, a far as what you can and can't do. I'm not even sure if you can mount them at all.

But I klnow there are adaptors available for Canon for some mounts.


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