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Old Aug 1, 2007, 12:02 AM   #1
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Instead of buying a brand new 10 megs camera with a cheap lens, I would rather buy a second hand good 6 megs camera, and buy a much better lenswith the money difference. I would tend to think that a much better lens would bring me more than a difference between 10 megs and 6 megs captor.

Then only when we get to 20 megs captors would I change the camera, but I would already have a good lens.

Does it sound totally unsane ? I do not see this way of thinking in the forums.

I mean, I can see D100 camera bodies at 400 USD and an EOS 10d at 555 USD on Ebay. That is the prices of an average p&S...


Another question : I would think that I would find better 2nd hand values within the best selling brands because of the quantityof second hand cameras.Which one is selling more DSLR ? Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax? Any official figures anywhere ?

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Old Aug 1, 2007, 2:44 AM   #2
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Well, 2007 could get interesting, as Nikon just overtook Canon for dSLR sales in Japan. But, these are just Japan numbers:

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...707190113.html

Based on 2006 numbers for worldwide sales, Canon leads the market for dSLR camera sales, followed by Nikon.

These two make up the vast majority of dSLR sales. The rest split much smaller percentages. We ran this on our breaking news page in April (Canon took 46.7% and Nikon took 30% of dSLR marketshare for 2006, looking at worldwide sales):


4/3/2007 10:58:00 AM
Canon Leads in Digital Camera Shipments in 2006, According to IDC (News article from the PMA Newsline International) Canon Inc., Tokyo, Japan, took the top market share in global digital camera shipments in 2006, and Samsung Electronics, Seoul, South Korea, jumped to fifth place from ninth a year ago, Framington, Mass.-based researcher IDC said.

Canon shipped 19.7 million digital cameras in 2006, accounting for 18.7 percent of the overall market. Canon's shipments jumped 23.3 percent from 2005, accoridng to IDC.

Industrywide digital camera shipments in 2006 rose 14.5 percent to 106 million units from a year earlier, driven by the strong popularity of DSLR models geared toward photo enthusiasts and professionals and growing demand in emerging markets, IDC said. DSLR shipments grew 39 percent to 5 million units last year.

Sony Corp., Tokyo, Japan, was No. 2 in the market with a 15.8 percent share, up from 15.2 percent in 2005, benefiting from its entry into the DSLR market, according to IDC. Eastman Kodak Co., the only U.S. company among the top five digital camera makers, ranked third with 10 percent, a drop from its 14.2 percent share a year earlier.

Japan-based Olympus Corp., which came in fourth, trimmed its share to 8.6 percent from 9.8 percent in 2005.

"The big winner in 2006 was Samsung, who displaced Nikon and became the fifth-largest seller of digital cameras in the world," said Christopher Chute, an IDC analyst.

Samsung expanded its market share to 7.8 percent in 2006, a huge jump from the 3.8 percent it had a year earlier. Its shipments more than doubled, IDC said.

Nikon Corp., Tokyo, Japan, the world's second-biggest maker of professional cameras after Canon, ranked No. 6 in the overall digital camera market with a 7.6 percent market share in 2006.

Canon also dominated the growing DSLR market, securing a 46.7 percent share in 2006, with its shipments rising 30.7 percent from a year earlier. But its share was trimmed from the 49.5 percent it had in 2006 amid increased competition from rivals.

Nikon secured the No. 2 position in DSLRs with a 33 percent market share. Its shipments jumped 35.9 percent. Sony, which bought the DSLR unit of Konica Minolta Holdings shipped 326,240 DSLRs in 2006, accounting for 6.2 percent of the market.

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Old Aug 1, 2007, 9:04 AM   #3
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That means 80 pct of the DSLR market belongs to Canon and Nikon... Thx for the data !

What about purchasing a second hand D100 or EOS10d with a solid lens insteadof a brand new 400D or D200 with a cheaper lens ?
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Old Aug 1, 2007, 9:43 AM   #4
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Well, time will tell what the 2007 numbers will be. But, Nikon is looking pretty strong in Japan right now.

The second half of the year is where the action is though (newer models being churned out in the fall with manufacturers trying to get them on the shelves in time for the busy year end holiday sales).

So, we may see a trick or two come out of some manufacturers' sleeves before then that impact the numbers signficantly for the rest of the year.

I'd be very careful buying used cameras. I'd suggest you stick to reputable dealers that check these cameras over carefully, grade their condition, and offer some kind of short term warranty on them with a good return policy. I'd check out http://www.keh.com or http://www.bhphotovideo.com

Be very careful buying Nikon gear used, too. There are a lot of gray market cameras out there (not intended for sale in the country they were sold in). Most of the lower priced new Nikons you see advertised are gray market with misleading warranty descriptions like 1 year US warranty that's really a store warrany versus a Nikon USA warranty. Only buy from authorized Nikon USA dealers if you go new (and if you see someone with a price that's signficantly lower than the major dealers, caveat emptor. If a price looks too good to be true, it probably is). It's pretty competitive out there.

Nikon will not service a camera that was not intended for the country you live in, period, even if you are willing to pay them for the service. You want to make sure you know what you're buying with a camera.

With a used camera, you've got issues with wear and tear on the moving parts like the mirror and shutter, and you may find problems like stuck pixels, too. If you have a major issue, it could you close to what paid for it to get it fixed (unless it's gray market, then you may not be able to get it fixed). -)

Also, newer models tend to have improvement in a variety of areas (Autofocus speed and reliability, write speed to media, buffer sizes for photos in a row, image processing algorithms that impact noise and more).

You also have compatiblity issues with some of the older models. For example, the EOS-10D you mentioned can't take Canon's EF-S lenses (only EF lenses designed for 35mm models will mount on it, so you could not use any of the newer Canon lenses designed specifically for their DSLR models with APS-C size sensors).

So, I'd shop very carefully if I went that route. I'd be more inclined to buy my lenses used and my body new (although if it were a relatively current model that was used and graded in like new condition by someone like KEH or B&H, and the savings were signficant, I'd consider a used camera if it offered the features I wanted.

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Old Aug 1, 2007, 10:41 AM   #5
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You may also want to consider a factory reconditioned camera (a genuine factory reconditioed camera versus one a store is calling reconditioned). The downside is a shorter warranty term with most (Nikon USA has a 90 day warranty on factory reconditioned models).

Some of our members found good deals on Nikon bodies and kits that way from CametaAuctions (a reputable Ebay vendor), and most had a relatively low shutter actuation count on them.

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Old Aug 1, 2007, 12:46 PM   #6
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Not an easy answer. While it is generally true that you are better served putting money into good glass over camera bodies, I think you have a flaw in your logic: megapixel differences aren't the only thing that changes. In fact I'll go so far as to say, MP count is the least important differentiator in deciding which DSLR to get for most people.

My advice to you is the same as to any other DSLR buyer. Here's the process:
  1. Figure out what types of photography are important to you[/*]
  2. Figure out what camera features contribute to success in those situations[/*]
  3. Figure out what lens features contribute to success in those situations[/*]
  4. Figure out what accessories are necessary for those types of photography (external flashes, tripods[/*]
  5. NOTE: seek help on steps 2,3 and 4 here and elsewhere from experienced shooters - preferably people who shoot what you want to and (this is key) shoot it at a level of proficiency you want to shoot at.[/*]
  6. Figure out what camera and lens features you WANT - this isn't the same as above. For example, lets say your areas of interest include landscape and portrait work, but you WANT a 400mm lens. Guess what, if you're taking mostly landscape and portrait shots, the 400mm lens can wait till later. The important thing to realize is you probably won't be able to afford everything you WANT - the key is to figure out what you NEED. [/*]
  7. Now, figure out which SYSTEMS best support 1-5 above. Figure out what camera bodies in those systems you think best meet your needs and what lenses and flashes. Then do some shopping around - can you find the gear you need? Don't just rely on a OEM website - make sure the product is actually available. A very real downside to certain pieces of equipment is it's availability. It doesn't do you any good if a given lens theoretically exists but no store has it in stock. Include used items if you wish. Rank the choices 1 - x[/*]
  8. Physically handle the cameras in a store. Ergonomics are important. The camera has to feel good to you. What feels good to one person feels bad to another. I like larger cameras, but plenty of people prefer smaller ones. Ergonomics is a very individual thing. I would never advise buying a first DSLR without handling it prior to purchase.
[/*]
Sounds like a lot of work, doesn't it? Here's the risk if you DONT do things this way:

1. you buy a camera and lens and spend all your money and you can't shoot what you want to shoot because it was a poor fit. I'll give you an example - let's say you buy a 10D and 70-200 f4 lens. Great equipment. But, if your primary purpose is shooting your kids inside the house, this will be a miserable kit to use. And, like it or not, some times ACCESSORIES are the key to success. Want to do portraits or those kids birthday parties? Guess what, a good external flash is key to success. In those situations LIGHT and the quality of that light can be more important than the camera or the lens. Shooting wildlife or serious landscape work? A tripod is a key component to your success.

2. You buy into the wrong SYSTEM for you. Let's say you're budget minded, don't mind buying used gear anddon't necessarily need autofocus - Pentax could be a great system for you. There are optically great 10, 15 or 20 year old lenses out there you can buy 2nd, 3rd or 5th hand that still work well (but won't autofocus and in some cases have manual aperture). But for people who need to buy from a brick-and-mortar store you may find it difficult to find stores with a large inventory of pentax lenses on hand. Or you like really wide angle photography - Olympus probably isn't the systeem for you because of the 2x multiplier due to it's sensor size. Wide angle lens choice is limited and quite expensive. But if you shoot telephoto that 2x multiplier could be a bonus to you. But, here's the real kicker - you want to make sure the SYSTEM supports your growth. You don't want to make an initial investment in a system that doesn't support your long term needs (if you know them). I'll give you an example - I'm a sports shooter. When I bought my first DSLR I couldn't afford the best, but I bought into a system that I knew supported intermediate and professional quality sports shooting equipment. Another sports shooter in these forums ended up having to sell off his gear from one system and buy into another. His first system was great at the start but didn't quite offer the advanced lenses and features he wanted when he became a serious sports shooter. Several people in these forums have bounced from one system to another. That's expensive since your lenses and flashes typically don't carry over. You're always going to spend less money if you stay within a given system. So, my point is: don't just make a decision because the camera/lens you buy now costs $100 less in one system than another. You'll end up paying a lot more in the long run when you switch systems.
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