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Old Aug 6, 2007, 1:13 AM   #1
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Since I am doing both fast sportsand portraits, and since I have no lens whatsoever, I knowboth specs almost by heart but I am still lost

- I definitely need one with an AV out allowing me for live preview on a largeexternal LCD before taking a picture.

- I need to crop a lot, and very large prints, although some vectorial softwares can definitely help.

- I need no noise at high ISO as I shoot at 1/250 inside artificial light gymnasiums.

- I need RAW + JPG fine

For portrait something like 80 mm and sport at around 400 mm, I guess I need 2 lens... Unlessa lens like the Nikkor 55-200 with a doubler is recommandable ?

Also, do Nikkor, Tamron and Sigma work both for Nikon and Canon ?
Still unclear...

Help !!!

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Old Aug 6, 2007, 10:52 AM   #2
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philgib wrote:
Quote:
Since I am doing both fast sportsand portraits, and since I have no lens whatsoever, I knowboth specs almost by heart but I am still lost

- I definitely need one with an AV out allowing me for live preview on a largeexternal LCD before taking a picture.
Ain't gonna happen.

To my knowledge, only the Olympus E-510 and one or two of the high end ($3000+)Canon and/or Nikon dSLRs do that. And they can't autofocus while they're doing it, so you have to use the viewfinder anyway. If you need to be able to look closely at the image before you take the shot, both Canon and Nikon have angle viewfinders and magnifiers that attach to the camera's eyepiece. One of those may suit you.

And the electronic viewfinders and the AV out ports have a much lower resolution than the final image, so for precise focusing, you're going to need to use the eyepiece anyway.

philgib wrote:
Quote:
- I need to crop a lot, and very large prints, although some vectorial softwares can definitely help.
Both the D80 and the 400Dhave 10MP sensors, and that should give you plenty to work with.

philgib wrote:
Quote:
- I need no noise at high ISO as I shoot at 1/250 inside artificial light gymnasiums.
What you really need are fast lenses (ie.: a lens that lets in a lot of light. Also referred to as a "bright" lens, or a lens with a large maximum aperture, or lower f-stop number). Turning up the ISO setting on any camera will increase the noise. The only way to avoid that is by increasing the aperture. As JohnG will, no doubt, attest, you need lenses with a maximum aperture of at least f/2.0 for indoor sports and outdoor sports at night (especially sports at high schools and middle schools, because they don't have a lot of money to spend on decent lighting. College sports will be better, especially if the sports are televised.)

philgib wrote:
Quote:
- I need RAW + JPG fine
Both the D80 and the 400D do that.

philgib wrote:
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For portrait something like 80 mm and sport at around 400 mm, I guess I need 2 lens... Unlessa lens like the Nikkor 55-200 with a doubler is recommandable?
80mm might be too long for portrait work. Both the D80 and the 400D have image sensors that are smaller than an exposure on 35mm film, so lenses on most dSLRs have a different field of view than the same lenses on film SLRs. This is known as a "Crop Factor". The D80 has a crop factor of 1.5, while the 400D has a crop factor of 1.6. This means that a 50mm lens on a D80 will have the same field of view as a 75mm lens on a film SLR, and the same lens on a 400D will have the same field of view as an 80mm lens on a film SLR. So a 50mm lens would be a good lens for portrait work. And that's good, because you'll need a fast lens (ie.: a lens that lets in a lot of light. Also referred to as a "bright" lens, or a lens with a large maximum aperture, or lower f-stop number) and high quality fast 50mm lenses are easier to find and less expensive than 80mm lenses.

And while the 55-200 is a good focal length for what you want, it isn't nearly fast enough. In order to get well exposed shots at fast shutter speeds with an ISO setting low enough to avoid noise, you'll need lenses with maximum apertures of f/2.0 or better.

And while "doublers" double the focal length of a lens, they also half the aperture.

philgib wrote:
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Also, do Nikkor, Tamron and Sigma work both for Nikon and Canon?
Canon lenses work with Canon bodies. Nikkor lenses work with Nikon bodies. Almost all Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina lenses are available for either Canon or Nikon bodies.
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Old Aug 6, 2007, 11:58 AM   #3
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Thanks a lot !

Do you think that :

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...al_Camera.html

and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._f_1_8_EX.html

wouldmake it ?

Phil
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Old Aug 6, 2007, 12:22 PM   #4
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For your basketball type of shooting, I'd probably go with something like the D80 or 400D you mentioned in this thread, and get an 85mm f/1.8 to go with one and shoot from the floor. A bright 85mm prime on a dSLR with an APS-C size sensor is usually the preferred choice for shooting basketball indoors, and these models have faster than average AF systems to help out with subject tracking (which you'll want because of a very shallow Depth of Field shooting at wider apertures on a DSLR).


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Old Aug 6, 2007, 12:34 PM   #5
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No offense to Oly owners. But, that's a new camera model, and the only review I've seen measuring the performance of one of the new Olympus models at higher ISO speeds (in controlled conditions from a reviewer that I'd trust) shows it's ISO 1600 to be closer to ISO 1250.

I have also not seen anyone trying to use one for Basketball (where the AF system performance comes into the equation, too). It's got 3 focus points available and I don't know how sensitive they are, or what their ability to track a moving subject would be.

That doesn't mean that they are not capable of getting some keepers in the right hands, with the right lenses on them. But, I'd suggest looking at a more proven solution for that type of shooting. Both the D80 and 400D have relatively decent AF systems that are also found on some of the more expensive models within each manufacturer's model lineup.



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Old Aug 6, 2007, 12:39 PM   #6
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The E-510 is a fine camera, though it has an even smaller image sensor than the D80 and the 400D. As a result, it has a crop factor of 2.0. And the Sigma 24mm f/1.8 is a fine lens, but even with a crop factor of 2.0, a 24mm lens is too short for portrait work.

The Olympus 150mm f/2.0 [http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...0_EP_Lens.html ] would be a fine lens for outdoor night sports, and the Olympus 35-100mm f/2.0 [http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._ED_Zuiko.html ] would be a fine lens for portraiture and indoor sports.

But it seems that you are stuck on the live preview on an external monitor. Can I ask what you have in mind for this that you don't think you can get any other way?
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Old Aug 6, 2007, 1:03 PM   #7
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Phil,

TCAV has given good advice. I'm going to leave more detailed answers on the portrait work to those more knowledgable than myself. I'll consider the sports side:

I'm a little unclear what sports you plan on shooting. You posted some basketball shots and mention here indoor sports, but you also talk about a 400mm lens. Can you list specifically what sports you plan on shooting, and for each sport listed: what level of play (i.e. grade school, HS, college, professional) and where you will be shooting from (i.e. shooting pro soccer/football from stands is very different than shooting down on the field).

I will say in general if sports is going to be a critical aspect of your photography I would strongly encourage you to stay within the Nikon or Canon camps. These two manufacturers control about 99% of the pro sports shooting market. They have the cameras and systems that are up to the demanding task of sports shooting. Now, entry level cameras / lenses won't have the same capability BUT some of the technology does trickle down. You've hit on one: high ISO performance. Right now, Canon, Nikon and Pentax all have very good high ISO performance. Sony and Oly bring up the rear. According to the reviews I've read, the new Oly cameras have gotten closer at high ISOs but still are about 1 stop worse than the competition. That's perfectly fine for many people - most people don't shoot at ISO 1600 and 3200 very often. Sports shooters are a bit different.

Another critical feature in sports shooting is predictive servo focusing. This refers to the camera's ability to do 2 things. First, to continuously re-focus as you track a subject (i.e. you keep the shutter half pressed or fully pressed and the camera constantly re-focuses) and second it's ability to PREDICTIVELY re-focus. This means the camera calculates speed and direction and will 'cheat' it's focus by calculating where a subject will be when the next frame is fired. This is where the fact that Canon/Nikon control pro sports shooting markets comes in heavily. They have the most demanding clients for this type of thing. And while the entry level bodies don't have ALL the same ability they have inherited some very key bits of functionality.

Lens focus speed: A lens with it's own focus motor is going to focus faster than a comparable lens W/O focus motor (i.e. one that relies on a motor within the camera body to drive it).

Lens selection. You want the right lens for the job. In sports there is no single lens. This is why, if sports shooting is going to be an important part of yor photography you should specify what sports you intend to shoot.A lens you use for indoor low-level basketball won't be of much use in shooting outdoor soccer/football.

Now, let's take for example the lens you listed as a possible choice for an E-510. The lens in question is a 24mm 1.8 lens. On the Oly this will have an equivelent focal length of 48mm. That's a bit of an odd focal length - too short for most portrait work and stilll too short for most sports work. Again, I'll stick to sports work.When you look at that lens it is designed to focus up to 5-10 feet or so (5' is the last reading before infinity). Beyond that range you're not going to get sharp results when focusing on people - especially people moving. You're not using the lens the way it was designed to be used. The fact that Oly has a 2x multiplier due to it's smaller sensor doesn't change the fact the lens was only designed for critical focusing to a certain point. Bottom line - that lens is way too short for most sports work. Nice for a creative shot or two but not good for 95% of indoor sports shooting.

If sports isn't a big part of your shooting then by all means, consider all the manufacturers. Oly and Pentax make some great gear - in many cases you get more bang-for-the-buck buying gear in those systems (I think every DSLR owner would agree Canon & Nikon tend to overcharge for their lenses especially - but the market will bear it).
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Old Aug 7, 2007, 1:09 AM   #8
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Tcav,


I may not spend 2000 dollars in a lens yet. I have to prove to myself that I can be worth it first...

I have been working intensively on my 5 meters tripod, with the possibilty of viewing the camera LCD on a screen on the ground, panning, tilting, zooming and firing.

I must say it is working perfectly, and it is so light I can walk around, and I must say I love pics taken from 4/6 meters above. Just so that I do not have to fight with other photographers in a pit, but just stay at the back.



Now you understand why I need to crop so much :



That is why I desesperately need an AV out. That said, I have read about the Zigview S2 which seems quite interesting as I could still go for the 400xti or the D80.

If you know of any other way, that would be great !

JOhnG,

Let met read your msg 20 times so that I am sure I can understand then I may come back to you :-)

Thanks again

Philgib

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Old Aug 7, 2007, 7:58 AM   #9
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philgib wrote:
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I may not spend 2000 dollars in a lens yet. I have to prove to myself that I can be worth it first...
You need fast lenses, and that's what fast lenses for the Olympus/Four-Thirds mount cost. Fast lenses for Canon and Nikon might be less expensive, but they might not. Adorama has Canon's 85mm f/1.8 for $340 and Nikon's for $400, and the 100/105mm lenses are not much more. The Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 might work for some of what you want to do, and Adorama has it for $890. The good news is that the 50mm f/1.8 lenses for Canon and Nikon are about $100, and they'll be good for your portrait work. (The 50mm f/1.4 and f/1.2 lenses will be a lot more expensie though.)

For sports, I think you'll probably need fast medium telephoto lenses, and thosedon't come cheap.

philgib wrote:
Quote:
I have been working intensively on my 5 meters tripod, with the possibilty of viewing the camera LCD on a screen on the ground, panning, tilting, zooming and firing.

I must say it is working perfectly, and it is so light I can walk around, and I must say I love pics taken from 4/6 meters above. Just so that I do not have to fight with other photographers in a pit, but just stay at the back.

That is why I desesperately need an AV out. That said, I have read about the Zigview S2 which seems quite interesting as I could still go for the 400xti or the D80.
It seems the Zigview is a great solution for what you want todo.

BTW, how do you zoom with your camera on top of a 5 meter tripod?

philgib wrote:
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If you know of any other way, that would be great !
Nope.
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Old Aug 7, 2007, 8:13 AM   #10
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Thanks. I guess I will go for the fixed 50mm and for the 105 mm, that should be a good way to learn correctly basics first.

You asked about the zoom :I have acable smoothly attached to the zoom ring runnning to the ground.

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