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Old Sep 14, 2007, 10:18 PM   #41
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Well my wife, and I went shopping today at the camera store, best buy, and circuit city.

As we drove down I explained all the advantages and disadvantages of each camera as unbiased as I could. "Nothing but the facts ma'am":-)

She is more of the "I just want to point and shoot" type of person. While I would want to do a bit more with it. We could have gotten many cameras of that type. But she really wanted the zoom as well thus the category we are in.

So I thought one of the Canons would be good for her with the easier learning curve they seem to have, with IS, and perhaps better auto pictures so she would not have to worry with to many details.

We looked at all 3 models plus the Sonys(no H-2s but tried to get a feel) that were at each store.

Will not go into detail all of the discussion but I was surprised on the selling point of the camera we are leaning towards. It wasn't IQ, ease of use, cost, etc...

But the manual zoom of the Fuji. My wife liked that much more than the auto zoom. I also liked the manual zoom but I could operate the auto just fine...not quite as easy but good enough.

So before I place the order for one. I would like to know when does IS really come into play? Long zoom, closeups, etc... Would it be needed for the typical shots taken by our Pentax IQZoom60 or can they even be compared for this question? I am still worried with the lack of IS but can it be over come? Especially with her wanting zoom as a priority.

Oh the prints we looked at the camera shop were 8x12 using 3 different cameras trying to shoot the same shot plus or minus the zoom was off a bit. The 3 cameras were H-5, S3, 6000. They were all taken in auto mode. To our amateur eyes they were hard to differentiate. Yes we could see a bit of color and sharpness difference but all were good to us. One just didn't stand out to us as the clear winner. Each had qualities that were a bit better but not so much they said buy me! The shots were of the outside of the building, trees and foliage, and people inside of the building.


David


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Old Sep 15, 2007, 2:37 AM   #42
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The Fuji probably has better lens and image quality.
It doesn't have IS but it has cleaner high ISO shots to compensate.

It lacks a fast tele though. The aperture drops to F/4.9 at full tele, compared to the S3/S5's F/3.5. Thats about one stop. The IS of the S3 gains up to 3 stops more, so thats almost 4 stops.
At ISO 100 on the S3/S5 you'd need to shot ISO 1600 with the Fuji and that wont look as good.

So, for full tele shots, you'd loose some shutterspeed with the Fuji.
On the other hand, for moving subjects, the 3 stop IS-advantage of the Canon is of no use cause the IS cant freeze a moving person.

I dont know, you'll have to decide yourself. But probably the Fuji takes better pics.
It also gives you more wide (and much less tele), so if you want to shoot lots indoors and have a bit extra wide the Fuji has the edge.
Wont get any image stabilised movies from it though...
I could go on, but have other things planned for this day too so...
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Old Sep 15, 2007, 11:52 AM   #43
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Sebastian-

I agree with everything in your post. Objectively, you have considered all of the technical details quite well. However, as Camera Instructor, I would like to share with you the subjective portion of the equation.

Time and time again, I see that students progress faster in improving their photography skills, when they can tally up a measurable number of progressively better and better photos. If the typical student feels that he or she just cannot get better and better photos from their camera, no matter how good the camera might be technically, they begin to use the camera less and to progressively begin to doubt their photo skills.

That is why I always suggest IS, knowing that the person using that camera is going to get more photos that are "keepers" and begin to grow and learn more about photography more quickly.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Sep 17, 2007, 3:11 AM   #44
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Sarah,

I've been reading the posts on this subject and am just joining now with a specific question.

I've been using a Kodak Z612 for about 9 months and it provides my basic photography needs.

But I would like a longer flash range and have been considering the S5IS because of the hot shoe. I also like the 12X zoom and the video - both avaiable on the Z612 but the video goes out of focus when zooming.

One factor makes me hesistate with the S5. I read in some review that the onboard flash can take up to 8 secs to recharge between shots when the flash fully discharges. This can cause me to lose 1-2 valuable photos.

This is the reason I went to the Z612 instead of the S3IS and was hoping Canon had solved this issue with the S5.

What is your experience/advice in this area?

Thanks very much,

Gary
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Old Sep 17, 2007, 8:09 AM   #45
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dm67 wrote:
Quote:
So I thought one of the Canons would be good for her with the easier learning curve they seem to have, with IS, and perhaps better auto pictures so she would not have to worry with to many details.
First, it's clear to me that you're taking this seriously, and you are to be commended. It's obvious that you're serious about doing this, and you're serious about your wife being able to do it.

Second, IS will mean that, at the very least,there's one more detail that your wife won't have to worry about.

dm67 wrote:
Quote:
So before I place the order for one. I would like to know when does IS really come into play? Long zoom, closeups, etc... Would it be needed for the typical shots taken by our Pentax IQZoom60 or can they even be compared for this question? I am still worried with the lack of IS but can it be over come? Especially with her wanting zoom as a priority.
IS really only plays a significant part in long focal lengths and/or long shutter speeds. So, yes, long zooms, closeups, etc., but also indoor/low light shots where the subject(s) isn't moving but there isn't enought light to permit a shutter speed that's fast enough to prevent motion blur from camera shake.

And remember that, if you've got IS, you can turn it off; if you don't have it, you can't turn it on.

BUT ...

At some of the steps of this process, it seems to me that you have asked for your wife's opinion, and then went the other way.

dm67 wrote:
Quote:
I believe I will drop the DSLR for now until I learn more about photography and I develop more than a casual use. Although I did show my wife photos taken by a Nikon 40d before I showed her the Ultrazooms....she thought the Nikon was the best.
dm67 wrote:
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But the manual zoom of the Fuji. My wife liked that much more than the auto zoom.
Just a word of caution. :-)

So if you get the Canon, ...


dm67 wrote:
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I showed my wife and she said she liked the bottom one with the external flash.
... you'd better get a flash. :-)
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Old Sep 17, 2007, 10:30 AM   #46
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As an asside, the Canon uses SD FLASH Memory Cards, while the Fujis use xD Cards and the Sonys use Memory Sticks. SD Cards are cheaper per megabyte, faster, and available in larger capacities.

That would sway me away from Fuji and Sony products. The xD Card format has been fairly resilient, but the Memory Stick format has gone through multiple changes, leaving the owners of early products without available supplimental or replacement cards. Who knows if the xD Card format will leave widowed devices in it's wake?
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Old Sep 17, 2007, 11:12 AM   #47
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Bayani-

Thanks for your post concerning the flash recycling time on the S-5IS of up to 8 seconds. To understand the problem of the flash recycle time of the S-5IS's built-in flash more clearly, we have to understand how the test was conducted. The camera's built-in flash was discharged into total darkness or blackness so that the capicators within the camera's built in flash would be totally discharged. While it is a good way to totall dicharge the capicators in the camera's built-in flash it is not very realistic at all.

When using the S-5IS's built-in flash all of normal shooting conditions, there is always some ambient light, our subject is usually 12 to 13 feet from the camera. Under those conditions, the S-5IS's flash does not totally discharge. In actually field shooting conditions, I have found the S-5IS's built-in flash is read for another photo in 2 to 3 seconds at the most.

However, you must keep in mind that there is yet another element in this equation. The S-5IS also has a hotshoe where an external flash, such as the Canon EX-420 or the newer EX-430 can be mounted. With the external flash on the camera, everything has changed. The flash range (camera to subject distance) using ISO 200 is extended out to 25 feet and you are able to take shot after shot with a 1 secon recycle time because there are 4 AA sized batteries in the external flash as well. In a pinch I have extended the flash range out to 35 feet.

You also now have full tilt and swivel capabilities on the external flash that allows you to do some very creative things by changing the direction of the flash head. I have cover a lot of that info in the already posted "Canon S-5IS Flash Tutorial" which can be found in the Canon Camera Folder. I have attached an informal portrait of my husband take using that Canon EX-420 external flash. It is a very good example of the kind of creative lighting that you can do with an external flash.

Sarah Joyce

This was done using the flash head titled upward at about 65 to 70 degrees so that the majority of the light was reflected off a white ceiling and a small amount was pushed forward into the photo to as a a fill-in light on my husband's face. It is a technique used by many professional photographers, and it is very easy to do. I cover it in detail in my "Canon S-5IS Flash Tutorial."


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Old Sep 17, 2007, 3:43 PM   #48
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dm67-

Can you please update us all about where you concerning your camera selection.

Thanks!

Sarah Joyce
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Old Sep 17, 2007, 6:44 PM   #49
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I could answer in a few lines I suppose but I wrote a book:crazy: as I always do...so my apologies for the length. :-)


Last night, Sunday, I finally just ordered the Fuji off of Amazon.com for $309.99 with a $50 dollar rebate. Also a 2g M xd card. I do not remember the number of pictures it can hold but it is way more than we shoot in a year with our current camera. Although this will change at least the first few weeks we have the camera.

If I would have gone with a Canon S3 IS and its SD card the price would have been just about the same. S5 being more.

Reasons/thoughts for the Fuji:

1) The way the camera felt in hand - Manual zoom vs. the auto zoom of the rocker switch. Probably the biggest reason for the Fuji.

2) We could not see much of a difference in real life 8X12 photos to our eyes. Nor in the photos we shot and looked back on the LCD of each camera. So without taking them home and blowing them up on the computer was all we could go by.

3) All the photos I have looked at on this site were extremely good, Sarah's, JohnG, Sebastians, Alex's, Rinnie's, etc. This was for both the Canons and the Fuji. I imagine that any of these folks would produce excellent results from either camera as some have already done so.

So I thought that while the pictures being shown were all great it was a toss-up which were best. So I could have gone with any of the cameras.

For me taking the pictures - Until I become profficient at it....either of the cameras would only be ok output I think....minus the issue of IS...see point 5.

4) I understood that the xD was more expensive, not as fast, but for us we thought that would be ok. We hope the card we bought will last a bit before failure. Or worst case buy another at some point - And hope they have not become extinct :-).

Also thought I read somewhere it isn't just how fast the card works but the camera processing that determines over all speed. And the DSLRs really took advantage of the speed and not so much the others.....But I only read that in passing. So may have missed a lot of details.

5) IS - the biggest negative, was hard to overcome, from my own worries and thoughts to the watch-outs from the folks here. However, with some positive comments about the camera and all the photos I have seen I could not tell that the Canon was better than the Fuji for blur. I realize that it depends on situations but looking at this site, Pbase, etc... there was a wide range of subjects, events, light level, etc...

There were bad pictures for each camera as well. I assume those are due to many of reasons from photographers skill to wrong settings.

However, this does not address the concern of Sarah's in the "keepers" one gets. Same for me....but since I have committed to the Fuji only time will tell.


In the store I showed my wife the Fuji. Showed what buttons I knew about and had the salesman fill in the rest. When she handled it she said oh this is light (my thoughts as well since this was supposed to be the heaviest). Then she zoomed in and out and got a general feeling of the camera. This store didn't have the Canons in stock so we went to the next. Again I played with the Canons then let my wife have a turn. I showed her where the buttons were and the zoom. One of her first comments was " I do not like how the zoom works". Does this trump IS probably not. But we went with this feeling and leaned towards the Fuji.

So those were some of the reasons / thoughts we based our decision on. Right or wrong...I think we would have won going with either the Canons or Fuji. So while we may have a steeper learning curve with the Fuji, I think we will be happy with it.

TCav,

Not sure if I answered some of your thoughts in that mess up there...but here are some general comments:

1) Yes, I am serious about learning to take good photos. I want my wife to be able to do as well. But she will not get into it as much as I will. She will just be the point and shoot person. Thus I thought Canons were in our future.

2) Well when I showed her the Nikon photos, I was being mean. Knowing we would not spend the money (at this time) for a full blown DSLR and lenses. It would be too much of an investment on an unknown hobby. The $300 we have spent while is a good amount of money it will not break us if it just becomes a casual vacation picture taking item. If that makes sense? Ahh....I read back over your comment...was your word of caution meant she may want me to buy a Nikon or other soon because she liked the manual zoom and the image qualities are so much nicer? :-)

3) Also same for the flash....either slave or dedicated would have to wait a bit until we learn if it is more than a vacation camera. I think as I learn more about photography I will get a flash because it looks to add so much to the photo.


Ok let me wrap it up before I start another page to this thread with this post alone!

Once the camera arrives I will post some shots....I plan to take a lot so I can learn the camera....weaknesses and strengths. Go through all the possible combinations of aperture, shutter time, Ev, modes, etc... to see what they do. Then go into composition etc...

I want to thank all that have helped with their the advice and time. I truly appreciate it!

Thanks,

David

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Old Sep 17, 2007, 7:44 PM   #50
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Congratulations, David!

I am sure that you will enjoy your new Fuji S-6000 and learn even more about photography. Enjoy and pst a few photos when you have a chance.

Sarah Joyce
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