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Old Oct 23, 2007, 4:09 PM   #11
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There is no news yet on a 5D successor. Best guesses are that there might be one in Jan/Feb, but that's what they were saying this time last year too.

Pretty good chance that there will be a Sony FF at around the same time.

Possibly even a Nikon competing in the same market too, I'm sure they can see a market gap that the D3 won't be able to fill.

And there's no real reason why Pentax shouldn't also have a go, they get their sensors from Sony too, and now that they have ditched their MF plans they may decide to try to recapture some of that market with a 24x36 DSLR.

Looks like there are still some exciting times ahead for digital photographers.

You can't use crop frame lenses with the 5D, the Canon ones don't even fit, and the Sigma etc will attach but show such severe vignetting that it's pointless even trying.


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Old Oct 23, 2007, 8:49 PM   #12
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I hope Peripatetic is right about everyone else joining in. To me that's a much more beneficial route than cramming more noisy MP on the same small sensor.

The only outfit you won't see going that way is Oly. Their entire marketing strategy is four thirds is better (smaller, lighter, more 'reach'). A full frame camera would undermine their entire strategy. Plus of course none of the lenses would be compatible.

Pentax I'm not so sure about - so far they've been concentrating on lower cost models and I believe their new lenses are designed for APS-C (but could be wrong here). So again, I think they've hitched their wagon to APS-C. Who knows with Sony?

I do look forward to the new Nikons getting on the market and being tested by working pros so we start seeing useful feedback. For me at least, canned reviewers cease to provide much useful info when you get to pro level bodies. Their testing paradigm is really to simplistic to push a pro level body. You want actual wedding photogs, sports photogs, wildlife photogs, journalists whataver using the cameras in the field and reporting back. So even once they come out it will be another 6 months before you've got useful feedback on their performance in the field.
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Old Oct 23, 2007, 10:00 PM   #13
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JohnG wrote:
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I hope Peripatetic is right about everyone else joining in. To me that's a much more beneficial route than cramming more noisy MP on the same small sensor.

I do look forward to the new Nikons getting on the market and being tested by working pros so we start seeing useful feedback. For me at least, canned reviewers cease to provide much useful info when you get to pro level bodies. Their testing paradigm is really to simplistic to push a pro level body. You want actual wedding photogs, sports photogs, wildlife photogs, journalists whataver using the cameras in the field and reporting back. So even once they come out it will be another 6 months before you've got useful feedback on their performance in the field.

I have never bought into the "more MP is better" design philosophy. Having said that Nikon is rumored to release a new flagship early next year with more MP. So the D3 might then become Nikon's "1DM3" but with a FF sensor. And of course the new king of the hill will be more expesiive.

And as for seeing the new Nikon's (D300/D3) tested by workingphotographers it's being done as some of us continue to wait for the debut. Though with pre-production models of course. But yeah I too would love to see someworldclass photogs test them out and write a review. Sounds like a great idea. But, I doubt that will ever happen. Well, at least not by a Vincent Versace or Joe McNally. Or any other big names.

At most we'll see a review by a Ken Rockwell. He is a "working photog".

But who knows. I "never say never".

But I don't think I can agree that the testing done by some of the sites most of us frequent are "...too simplistic to push a pro level body...". I mean what are the websites not doing?Not shooting in ultra harsh environments like Mt. Everest? CoveringPro sports?

Wait 6 months after the release of the D3/D300? Can't do it.

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Old Oct 23, 2007, 11:15 PM   #14
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DarkDTSHD wrote:
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But I don't think I can agree that the testing done by some of the sites most of us frequent are "...too simplistic to push a pro level body...". I mean what are the websites not doing?Not shooting in ultra harsh environments like Mt. Everest? CoveringPro sports?

Wait 6 months after the release of the D3/D300? Can't do it.

OK take for example Steve's review of Canon's mk III. It's no secret this camera is a aimed squarly at sports photographers along with photojournalists and wildlife photogs. Where are the discussions of the servo tracking performance. Where are the test shots using 400mm 2.8 lens covering soccer, football, track or whatever. Nothing in his review tested this camera under the conditions the users of the camera will use it. Quite frankly, DP Review isn't much better. Professional grade sports, wildlife or wedding photography isn't something you can just try to do. These are very demanding fields and there are a lot of little things pros like to consider.

Let's say you're a wildlife photographer - a birder of Eric's level using mkIIn and 600mm f4 style lenses. Some pictures of boats in a harbor are hardly relevant. You want to hear from other birders working with the same level of equipment in the same situations shooting the same subject types. Unless I'm wrong, neither Phil nor Steve have that type of background. We're not talking entry level cameras here so the hobbyist doesn't count they're not experienced enough in what it takes to get that top 1% of image quality. And that's what pros are after. That's why it kills me when people are waiting for pro camera reviews from Phil or Steve to make a decision. As a sports photographer - who is going to provide me with better insight into how well the camera performs for sports shooting - a person earning their living in a highly competitive market and producing top results in their field or a generalist. Sorry, I think most pros want the critical eye of a specialist reviewing the camera. Someone whose livelihood depends on their equipment and can critically assess how the camera compares to the competition for their chosen field. You're not going to get critical enough feedback from a 'jack of all trades but master of none' reviewer.



Edit: by the way I include myself in the realm of hobbyists. A pro sports photog isn't going to be interested in my opinion of the mkIII - nor should he/she be.

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Old Oct 23, 2007, 11:59 PM   #15
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Hello JohnG,

As i said, having a seasoned working photog put a D3 through it's paces then write an in-depth review would be excellent. No question. I'd LOVE to see that. But at the same time...if you are a working photog would you really be bothering with reviews? I'd wouldn't think so. I think they rely on actual hand-on time with pre-production samples. Or word of mouth from fellow photographers.

Having the opportunity to read test reports done by experienced photographers (e.g. sports photographers reviewing a D3) would be awesome. Using the glass commonly used in the field.

That being said, I have to admit, that when I hear people say "Professional" I automatically think of world famous photographers. When in fact any one making a living as with a camera can be considered a "professional" (hate that word). As I've seen some pretty shoddy work done by certain "working photographers". I feel the label should only be given to the "best of the best".

Actually, there is a magazine I saw called "Professional Photographer". Perhaps they might have test reports done by working photographers. I think I'll look more closely at a copy the next time I'm in the newstands.

In the meantime, I still do think there is value to be found in the tests done by your typical "jacik of all traides" reviewer. Any information is good in my book. That andwith reading reviews done by "generalists" you usually do find out ifadvertised featuresare functioning. It's just thattheir reviews might not be "thebest"but stillshould not be dismissed (whether you're looking to buy an entry-level DLR or a pro body). So, I'll still be looking forwards to reading the reviews from Steve, Phil and the like.
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Old Oct 24, 2007, 12:55 AM   #16
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You're correct in that working pros don't necessarily write formal reviews. BUT, the key is to go to the forums where those working pros congregate. As an example, sportsshooter.com is going to have quite a number of working pro sports photographers on it - so you look for posts there (you can't post yourself if you're not a member). Alternately, Fred Miranda's sight has quite a few very talented sports photographers. So while members of those forums aren't likely to post white papers it is THERE that you seek feedback. I believe Eric has mentioned in the past some forums where top notch wildlife photogs congregate.

So it's a matter of knowing where to look to gain pieces of knowledge.

Let me give you a perfect example:

I was trading posts with an individual trying to shoot sports and was suggesting the focus was off in some photos. He mentioned he bought the camera because reviews said "the camera was very quick to focus". Well, those reviews mentioned nothing about how well the camera TRACKS a subject nor how autofocus performance dropped in lower light levels (not all cameras focus as well in lower light - it isn't just the lens the camera plays a part as well). These are all important things to a sports shooter - even a hobbyist. But the generic reviews don't test equipment for that purpose. So a comment like "the camera is very quick to focus" is misinterpreted into "the camera is quick to focus and track moving subjects in low light". That's what I'm talking about. There are nuances that generic tests don't pick up on. Those nuances make ALL the difference for specialized photography. And quite honestly, reviewers aren't going to have the TIME to do that kind of testing.

In the end, let me make a bold prediction. Going to step out on a big limb here: Both Steve and Phil will write glowing reviews regarding the D3. I guarantee it. Neither of those reviews will help a wildlife or sports photog determine if an upgrade is in order OR better still be able to tell a SEASONED pro body shooter in Canon if they should jump ship. They're great fodder for the forums in the endless debate of "XXX killer" and "brand YYYY is now doomed". Or "Steve/Phil confirmed it: my brand has the best camera" type threads.

Don't get me wrong - I think reviews of the consumer grade cameras are very helpful. Themajority of the market are like generalists (and that's not a derogatory term) so the generic / controlled reviews are very beneficial.


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Old Oct 24, 2007, 1:46 AM   #17
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I agree - there is basically no way that the top level cameras from Nikon and Canon are not going to get rave reviews from the ordinary review sites. They just don't put the top cameras through a process that will really stress them.

Have you seen this "review" John?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...meras/d3.shtml


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Old Oct 24, 2007, 2:12 AM   #18
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I think that review was an interesting read. I liked the honesty of the writer. So I would glean that this shooter does staged shots for magazines and such (i.e. not live action sports). And given the equipment experience they would seem to have relevant experience to judge overall IQ, exposure, skintone, etc. to a very high level. So the fact those comments were stated would hold some weight.

But, I also get the feeling they're a gear collector - they collect every cool new toy. No discussion of whether or not the camera would replace their current camera - just another toy they wanted to add to the fold.

So while I found it an interesting read, I didn't really find anything in it useful enough that I could make a purchase decision off of it.

Here's the type of posts / reviews I like:

"I took my mkIIN and mkIII to the field and used the same 400mm 2.8 lens on both throughout the match", repeat for about 7 more matchers.

"In the end, I liked such and such better about the II-N, but the mkIII was better at this-and-that". then either "I would plan on phasing in the mkIII replacing my II-Ns" or "not really a significant enough upgrade - for these reasons". It's rare you'd find someone to compare a Nikon and Canon side-by-side. And while that would be nice - how many people really jump into a system for the first time and buy the pro body? I think it takes a quantum leap to get a pro with $15,000-$20,000 in lenses and $10,000 in bodies to sell them off and switch to another brand.
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Old Oct 24, 2007, 9:11 AM   #19
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Goodsuggestion JohnG. Checking out forums like the one from Sportsshooter.com and the like. I'm certainly going to start doing that. The next best thing to getting actual in-depth reviews from "working photogs". Though, there are podcasts where people like Vincent Versace will comment on "pro body" DSLRs having actually used them in the field.

I do agree that if you are a working photographer and you wanted to know if the D3 or the 1DsM3 is worth upgradint to from a D2Xs or 1DM2...then the "generalist" type reviews might not offer enough insight. And wouldn't truly put these new "pro bodies" through their paces.

Actually, even if you weren't upgrading from a "pro body", I think it would still be a good idea to seek commentary from a working photographer. In addition to hearing from hobbyists.

And thanks for the link peripetetic. Will definitely give that a read.

Only another month or so before we get the D3/D300....
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Old Oct 24, 2007, 9:56 AM   #20
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DarkDTSHD wrote:
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Only another month or so before we get the D3/D300....
Correction - only another month or so before they're RELEASED. Who knows how long it may take to actually get one. I expect the demand to be high so there may be an additional month or two to get your hands on one.
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