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Old Dec 31, 2007, 3:58 PM   #31
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On my Fuji S-9100 I have used ISo 400 at night with great results especially for high school football games and the like. I tend to try to shoot on ISO 100 most of the time but their are times whern ISO 200 and 400 work better for me and the picture.

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Old Dec 31, 2007, 4:35 PM   #32
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Mr. Saginaw,

Thank you for entertaining us with many wonderful pictures taken with your S5. Since you quoted my reply (in its entirety) in your...uh...9:07 AM post, I feel obligated to question why you felt the need to post pictures taken inside of and from your Hummer. Maybe you didn't read my reply to the OP (which you quoted), or didn't read the OP's statement regarding the upcoming trip to Disney (oh wait - you quoted that in your 7:33 AM post). Maybe you've never been to Disney, or visited "It's a Small World". That particular ride, like most (if not all) of the indoor rides in Disney are very dark. There's no way you would be able to take a shot at ISO 200 from your moving Disney vehicle. Therefore, your very nice pictures were not relevant to the discussion. You also failed to note that the picture taken inside of the Hummer was a flash pic...

" Inside vehicle... no tripod... LOL!

ISO-200...."

...so much for available light photography.

I don't really care what camera the OP buys. I think, however, you are doing the OP a disservice by posting pics taken under ideal conditions. The OP started this thread with concerns about noise in pictures. You've provided evidence that your camera takes very good pics under optimum conditions. When you can't take pics at ISO 200 or less, you break out your DSLR. What will the OP do when faced with having to take a pic at ISO 400 or 800? Buy a DSLR? Or just put the camera back in the case and forget about it?

I offered a camera option that I thought might appeal to the OP...thinking that image quality was the single most important camera attribute. Apparently the OP felt that having 8MP, IS, and a flip up LCD was more important than high ISO performance. That's fine. The S5 is a very good camera, and will serve the OP well. I just wanted to inform...and I have.

the Hun




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Old Dec 31, 2007, 4:55 PM   #33
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rinniethehun wrote:
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Mr. Saginaw,

Thank you for entertaining us with many wonderful pictures taken with your S5. Since you quoted my reply (in its entirety) in your...uh...9:07 AM post, I feel obligated to question why you felt the need to post pictures taken inside of and from your Hummer. Maybe you didn't read my reply to the OP (which you quoted), or didn't read the OP's statement regarding the upcoming trip to Disney (oh wait - you quoted that in your 7:33 AM post). Maybe you've never been to Disney, or visited "It's a Small World". That particular ride, like most (if not all) of the indoor rides in Disney are very dark. There's no way you would be able to take a shot at ISO 200 from your moving Disney vehicle. Therefore, your very nice pictures were not relevant to the discussion. You also failed to note that the picture taken inside of the Hummer was a flash pic...

" Inside vehicle... no tripod... LOL!

ISO-200...."

...so much for available light photography.

I don't really care what camera the OP buys. I think, however, you are doing the OP a disservice by posting pics taken under ideal conditions. The OP started this thread with concerns about noise in pictures. You've provided evidence that your camera takes very good pics under optimum conditions. When you can't take pics at ISO 200 or less, you break out your DSLR. What will the OP do when faced with having to take a pic at ISO 400 or 800? Buy a DSLR? Or just put the camera back in the case and forget about it?

I offered a camera option that I thought might appeal to the OP...thinking that image quality was the single most important camera attribute. Apparently the OP felt that having 8MP, IS, and a flip up LCD was more important than high ISO performance. That's fine. The S5 is a very good camera, and will serve the OP well. I just wanted to inform...and I have.

the Hun



Sorry... it was early for me... I did not get the "Small World" reference since I have never been to Disney World... The flash picture was an honest mistake on my part... I had completely forgotten it was a flash picture... Sorry I didn't look at the EXIF data... I guess I'm surprised a flash picture that close to the subject with a P&S can look that good... it really was just an honest oversight...

I guess I'll go look for examples of high ISO images shot in dark rooms with other P&S and see how they compare....

In the mean time I did try shooting an ISO-200... this is ISO-200, P-mode, +2/3, full zoom... this is staight out of the camera... only thing is it was resized in PS...




BTW... shooting pictures in a Hummer going 25+ MPH through the woods is not what I would call optimal conditions... LOL
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Old Dec 31, 2007, 10:37 PM   #34
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"I guess I'll go look for examples of high ISO images shot in dark rooms with other P&S and see how they compare...."

I'll save you the trouble...go here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

Select the S5 as your first camera, then scroll down to Still-life 200 (ISO 200), then click on the thumbnail to enlarge the pic to original size.

Now go over to the right side, and click on "All Cameras", then select the Fuji S6000fd, then scroll down to Still-life 800 (ISO 800)...that's right...I want it to be a fair comparison...then click on the thumbnail to enlarge the pic to original size.

Now, scroll down to the crayon box. Compare the knurling on the salt & pepper shaker knobs. Which has lost the most detail?. Now look at the crayons...which pic looks better? Look at the dark area between the crayon box and the pepper oil bottle...which has more noise?
Now, scroll over to the color swatch in the middle of the pics...which has less noise?

Now, scroll over to the cup with the two brushes in it, at the right side of the pics. Which has lost the most detail?

Pixel peeping? Yes - but don't forget, you're comparing a picture taken at ISO 200 with one camera against one taken at ISO 800 with another. Both taken under the same lighting conditions, of the same subjects, by the same reviewer. We're not talking dark room pics here, these were taken under laboratory grade lighting. Imagine the difference under dark room conditions.

Now take a look at the Fuji at ISO 400...maybe you shouldn't...

the Hun



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Old Jan 1, 2008, 10:59 AM   #35
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Hey rinniethehun, thanks for the great site. I saw this site before and bypassed it. I've been reading so much about camera's and looking at pictures but failed to do a picture to picture comparision. I've only compared different images which doesn't give you fair results. Thanks again.

Cheers and Happy New Year!
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Old Jan 1, 2008, 11:26 AM   #36
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rinniethehun wrote:
Quote:
"I guess I'll go look for examples of high ISO images shot in dark rooms with other P&S and see how they compare...."

I'll save you the trouble...go here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

Select the S5 as your first camera, then scroll down to Still-life 200 (ISO 200), then click on the thumbnail to enlarge the pic to original size.

Now go over to the right side, and click on "All Cameras", then select the Fuji S6000fd, then scroll down to Still-life 800 (ISO 800)...that's right...I want it to be a fair comparison...then click on the thumbnail to enlarge the pic to original size.

Now, scroll down to the crayon box. Compare the knurling on the salt & pepper shaker knobs. Which has lost the most detail?. Now look at the crayons...which pic looks better? Look at the dark area between the crayon box and the pepper oil bottle...which has more noise?
Now, scroll over to the color swatch in the middle of the pics...which has less noise?

Now, scroll over to the cup with the two brushes in it, at the right side of the pics. Which has lost the most detail?

Pixel peeping? Yes - but don't forget, you're comparing a picture taken at ISO 200 with one camera against one taken at ISO 800 with another. Both taken under the same lighting conditions, of the same subjects, by the same reviewer. We're not talking dark room pics here, these were taken under laboratory grade lighting. Imagine the difference under dark room conditions.

Now take a look at the Fuji at ISO 400...maybe you shouldn't...

the Hun


Yep, no doubt the Fuji excels at the higher ISO settings out of the camera.... but one comment in the reviews got me thinking...

This is from the S8000FD review:

"Noisy above ISO 400, blurred by heavy noise reduction."

So I downloaded the S5 test image and played around with it in Neat Image... sure enough I was basically able to take the S5 ISO-800 image and clean it up in Neat Image to be pretty close to the Fuji image... So I don't think the Fuji sensor is magically better than the Canon... Fuji just appears to have better noise reduction software in the camera... Something I can compensate for with Neat Image..

I also went and looked at just how dark this "Small World" stuff is.. it is a very dark room... i don't care what kind of camera you have, an ambient light picture is going to be noisey and blurry... and most likely underexposed... So at least with the S5 I can add a more powerful external flash unit...




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Old Jan 1, 2008, 12:13 PM   #37
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" Yep, no doubt the Fuji excels at the higher ISO settings out of the camera...."

The very point I was trying to make.

" This is from the S8000FD review:

"Noisy above ISO 400, blurred by heavy noise reduction.""

The comparison I was making was between the S5 and the S6000, not the S8000.

"So I downloaded the S5 test image and played around with it in Neat Image... sure enough I was basically able to take the S5 ISO-800 image and clean it up in Neat Image to be pretty close to the Fuji image..."

Sounds like a lot of work, just to make your camera almost as good as the Fuji.

"So I don't think the Fuji sensor is magically better than the Canon... Fuji just appears to have better noise reduction software in the camera... Something I can compensate for with Neat Image.."

The S6000 is considerably larger than the S5 sensor...think that might have something to do with it? Remember the OP's #1 requirement?

" 1. Reasonable CCD. I don't want to settle for anything smaller than 1/1.7"."

Again, having to run Neat Image on every one of my pics doeesn't sound like the way I'd like to spend my sunday afternoons. And Neat Image cannot take a bad picture and make it look good. It removes noise by removing detail to smooth the image.

"So at least with the S5 I can add a more powerful external flash unit... "

And what if you're not allowed to use flash?

You don't have to defend your S5 to me, I've already said it's a nice camera. But don't try to tell me that by post processing every pic and by buying an expensive external flash unit you can make it just as good in low light as the S6000. There will always be photo opportunities that mandate the use of higher ISO settings...or you just won't get the picture. Haven't you ever cranked your 20D up to ISO 1600 or even 3200 in a pinch?

the Hun




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Old Jan 1, 2008, 12:44 PM   #38
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rinniethehun wrote:
Quote:
" Yep, no doubt the Fuji excels at the higher ISO settings out of the camera...."

The very point I was trying to make.

" This is from the S8000FD review:

"Noisy above ISO 400, blurred by heavy noise reduction.""

The comparison I was making was between the S5 and the S6000, not the S8000.

"So I downloaded the S5 test image and played around with it in Neat Image... sure enough I was basically able to take the S5 ISO-800 image and clean it up in Neat Image to be pretty close to the Fuji image..."

Sounds like a lot of work, just to make your camera almost as good as the Fuji.

"So I don't think the Fuji sensor is magically better than the Canon... Fuji just appears to have better noise reduction software in the camera... Something I can compensate for with Neat Image.."

The S6000 is considerably larger than the S5 sensor...think that might have something to do with it? Remember the OP's #1 requirement?

" 1. Reasonable CCD. I don't want to settle for anything smaller than 1/1.7"."

Again, having to run Neat Image on every one of my pics doeesn't sound like the way I'd like to spend my sunday afternoons. And Neat Image cannot take a bad picture and make it look good. It removes noise by removing detail to smooth the image.

"So at least with the S5 I can add a more powerful external flash unit... "

And what if you're not allowed to use flash?

You don't have to defend your S5 to me, I've already said it's a nice camera. But don't try to tell me that by post processing every pic and by buying an expensive external flash unit you can make it just as good in low light as the S6000. There will always be photo opportunities that mandate the use of higher ISO settings...or you just won't get the picture. Haven't you ever cranked your 20D up to ISO 1600 or even 3200 in a pinch?

the Hun



How often do you really need this great low light performance? I have yet to come across a situation where I need to use my S5 at anything but ISO 80 or 100. I've never run any of my S5 images through Neat Image....

I think you are overplaying the importance of the higher ISO setting... How often does the average shooter really need it? In the 6 or 7 months I've had my S5 I've never needed it... How often do you shoot in a dark room? If it's a lot then perhaps a P&S isn't for you...

As far as post-processing... I'm simply pointing out that on those rare occassions you do need to use that higher ISO setting you do have options... As far as extra work... Neat Image is a great tool... You can simply do "auto-profile" and batch processing... No real effort at all...

I shoot competitive gymnastics... it is a NO FLASH sport... if you know you are going to be shooting a lot of low light shots, like say high school gyms, than you really need to move up to a DSLR with some fast lens... You will never capture an image like this with a P&S regardless of what you think the low light performance is...




I've spent more than enough time on this thread... Agree to disagree...

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Old Jan 1, 2008, 4:43 PM   #39
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have yet to come across a situation where I need to use my S5 at anything but ISO 80 or 100."

And yet, you have already posted three pictures in this thread, which you took at ISO 200. Why didn't you use ISO 80 or 100 for those?

"I've never run any of my S5 images through Neat Image.... "

Then why do you have it? To clean up your 20D images?

Here's what you said in an earlier post:

"I get great results (at least they are great to me, which is the most important thing!), but then I very rarely take my S5 off of ISO 80... If need be I use the flash or tripod... of if I have to i will go up to ISO 200... but never above that... But if I really have to use the higher ISO I know I can clean up a the noise using Neat Image..."

"Ok.. here are my samples... i don't remember all the details... yes they've been adjusted with PS.. but i guess my feeling is so what... i've very happy with the finished image... LOL!"

So the S5 is great, only if you only shoot at ISO 80 to 100, Photoshop everything you shoot, and use Neat Image to clean up the noise? I don't understand how that makes a camera great.

"I think you are overplaying the importance of the higher ISO setting... How often does the average shooter really need it? In the 6 or 7 months I've had my S5 I've never needed it..."

Of course you don't need it...any time you're faced with a low light situation, you whip out your DSLR. How many average shooters have a DSLR up their sleeves along with a super zoom?

"How often do you shoot in a dark room? If it's a lot then perhaps a P&S isn't for you... "

This isn't about me...it's about the OP - I'm not looking for a camera.

"if you know you are going to be shooting a lot of low light shots, like say high school gyms, than you really need to move up to a DSLR with some fast lens..."

Again, I don't need to move up to a DSLR - I'm not looking for a camera. The OP is looking for a camera...a camera that has a 28mm wide angle, and a sensor size of 1/1.7"minimum. And the OP is concerned about noisy images.

"You will never capture an image like this with a P&S regardless of what you think the low light performance is..."

And a nice pic it is - but you didn't take that picture with your S5, did you? No, you took that picture with your 20D, didn't you? And you used Photoshop Elements to tweak it. And you shot it at ISO 3200 - and it wasn't exactly taken in a dark room, was it? What does that have to do with noise in a super zoom? What does that have to do with a comparison between two super zooms? Do you really think I'm impressed with that picture? A picture you needed to shoot at ISO 3200...a perfectly static shot - no movement - no action. From how far away - 100 feet? So you're admitting that you couldn't have possibly taken that shot with your S5? Isn't that one of those situations where you could have used your S5 at ISO 80 or 100?

"Agree to disagree... "

Disagree about what? That the S5 will take acceptable pictures, only when you use ISO 80 to 100, Photoshop every pic, and run them through Neat Image if necessary? Or that a DSLR is better in low light situations than an S5? Sorry, I can't disagree with that.

The Hun


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Old Jan 1, 2008, 5:08 PM   #40
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rinniethehun wrote:
Quote:
have yet to come across a situation where I need to use my S5 at anything but ISO 80 or 100."

And yet, you have already posted three pictures in this thread, which you took at ISO 200. Why didn't you use ISO 80 or 100 for those?

"I've never run any of my S5 images through Neat Image.... "

Then why do you have it? To clean up your 20D images?

Here's what you said in an earlier post:

"I get great results (at least they are great to me, which is the most important thing!), but then I very rarely take my S5 off of ISO 80... If need be I use the flash or tripod... of if I have to i will go up to ISO 200... but never above that... But if I really have to use the higher ISO I know I can clean up a the noise using Neat Image..."

"Ok.. here are my samples... i don't remember all the details... yes they've been adjusted with PS.. but i guess my feeling is so what... i've very happy with the finished image... LOL!"

So the S5 is great, only if you only shoot at ISO 80 to 100, Photoshop everything you shoot, and use Neat Image to clean up the noise? I don't understand how that makes a camera great.

"I think you are overplaying the importance of the higher ISO setting... How often does the average shooter really need it? In the 6 or 7 months I've had my S5 I've never needed it..."

Of course you don't need it...any time you're faced with a low light situation, you whip out your DSLR. How many average shooters have a DSLR up their sleeves along with a super zoom?

"How often do you shoot in a dark room? If it's a lot then perhaps a P&S isn't for you... "

This isn't about me...it's about the OP - I'm not looking for a camera.

"if you know you are going to be shooting a lot of low light shots, like say high school gyms, than you really need to move up to a DSLR with some fast lens..."

Again, I don't need to move up to a DSLR - I'm not looking for a camera. The OP is looking for a camera...a camera that has a 28mm wide angle, and a sensor size of 1/1.7"minimum. And the OP is concerned about noisy images.

"You will never capture an image like this with a P&S regardless of what you think the low light performance is..."

And a nice pic it is - but you didn't take that picture with your S5, did you? No, you took that picture with your 20D, didn't you? And you used Photoshop Elements to tweak it. And you shot it at ISO 3200 - and it wasn't exactly taken in a dark room, was it? What does that have to do with noise in a super zoom? What does that have to do with a comparison between two super zooms? Do you really think I'm impressed with that picture? A picture you needed to shoot at ISO 3200...a perfectly static shot - no movement - no action. From how far away - 100 feet? So you're admitting that you couldn't have possibly taken that shot with your S5? Isn't that one of those situations where you could have used your S5 at ISO 80 or 100?

"Agree to disagree... "

Disagree about what? That the S5 will take acceptable pictures, only when you use ISO 80 to 100, Photoshop every pic, and run them through Neat Image if necessary? Or that a DSLR is better in low light situations than an S5? Sorry, I can't disagree with that.

The Hun

Acutally the OP NEVER SAID he was going to be shooting in dark rooms... YOU brought up the "Small World" room... Not the OP... He mentioned Disney... you assumed he had dark rooms in mind... There are situtation where a P&S won't take a good picture no matter what P&S you use...

Have you ever shot sports in a high school gym? They are typically dark caves as any sports shooter will tell you! Where are your action shots from your local indoor sports team? Your P&S with it's magic ISO-800 or 1600 is going to take blurry, noisey pictures... Come on lets see what kind of images your Fuji produces... You are the one that doesn't consider gyms "dark rooms"... should be a piece of cake for you... oh, and lets see the image straight out of the camera since you are soooo against post processing...

The OP was concerned about the picture quality of the S5 because he found some terrible samples that were shot in typical situations... I attempted to show him MY typical samples... Pictures I've taken in a wide variety of settings... That squirrel picture he found was terrible... shot at ISO-800 (no need for that!) and was out of focus... Let me guess your magic S6000FD has 100% accuracy when focusing too...

Since you are so self-assured of your abilties with your Fuji you should be to duplicate these images... (and yes, they are from my 20D... but hey you've got high ISO setting so it shouldn't be a problem for you...)






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