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View Poll Results: Do you think that subframes are adequate substitutes for a fullframe?
Yes 4 80.00%
No 1 20.00%
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Old Mar 18, 2009, 11:38 PM   #11
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"I was not astounded to search DPR forums for your username to discover your banned. Gee. wonder why that happened."

Because there are a lot of idiots at DPR like you?

It's SOP for a forum-administrator to ban someone who has a habit of telling people on a forum what they don't want to hear. Regardless of the truth of it or not. It's just a shame that they ban down to the lowest-common denominator, they ban down *to* stupid instead of up away from it. They generally produce forum after forum of zombies. Superficially well-mannered zombies who are impatient to impress their stupidity on other people and who respond with even more stupidity, much like you have done in this thread.

That is, as I said, one of the many reasons why I posted here instead of there.
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Old Mar 18, 2009, 11:57 PM   #12
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...though I have to admit that I searched for "animal" on this thread and I didn't find it so maybe I wrote it and deleted it later in one of my edits.

Anyway the point stands. DSLRs, ignoring MF gear, come in two flavors, subframe and fullframe, and as such you have to buy one or the other, sometimes you can buy both but that is the overall case, at least you have one fullframe.

The question is can you truly be happy with a subframe DSLR and *only* a subframe DSLR, and in what conditions. If you have no interest in any shooting conditions which would be better met with a fullframe, and you would never have the money to buy a fullframe, the point is somewhat moot. But if you *do*, then clearly there will be times at which you will wish that you had just gone ahead and bought a fullframe. Since for the most part most shots that you can take with a subframe can also be taken with a fullframe, but many shots that you can take handheld with a fullframe cannot be taken with comparable IQ iwth a subframe, the one is a superset of the other. All you have to do is pony-up the cash and deal with the loss of the FOV crop. You can't put fullframe SNR into a subframe sensor short of using a tripod. Once you begin to use a tripod you can usually just go a little further and use a p&s. So in essence buying a subframe is like buying a bad fullframe or an overgrown p&s, but only in one case is the frame going to be much smaller if you buy what you really need, and in the other case you get a much-better camera for the same size & weight.

Of course there are exceptions to this rule, "special cases", and if those cases and only those cases apply to you then you can safely ignore what I'm saying. If not, then you'll have to deal with it sooner or later.

Please, someone read this slowly to the kids from the short bus.
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Old Mar 18, 2009, 11:59 PM   #13
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"I cannot force you to be civil. I'm not your mother. "

...again with the obvious commentary!
You're an astounding pillar of obvious thought!

"Its your thread till the mods here boot you."

it'll be my thread even *after* that

and you'll be just as stupid even after your lobotomy scars heal.

Ultimately when you take shots and say what gear you used there are two things that are possible. Either it was the best possible gear or not. Beyond that it's a shooters' choice. Always pluses & minuses that must be weighed. Each of us must make our own decisions as to what we shoot with & why. But never is there only one choice. Always there are options. And inherent in each choice is the intelligence and knowledge of the person making it. And the fact is that sometimes that choice is just stupid.

Is it truly "civil" to lie to someone about this? Or to equivocate?

I ask you to think about it as if you were sitting down next to someone on a crowded bus and you hadn't bathed or changed clothes in a month. How stupid do you have to be before your stupidity itself is uncivil? You just can't be blatantly, offensively stupid in a civil manner. No matter how polite your words, the though (or lack thereof) behind them is incredibly offensive. Or don't you think that this can happen? It's not possible for you to be offensive in this manner?

If that is what you think, then I have to tell you that you are flat f-ing wrong.
And at dpr and many other internet forums, the mods are so concerned with "civility" that the let stupidity run rampant. And if that is the way that they run this forum, then I will be happy when they ban me from it. For I have better things to do with my time than to waste it with idiots and fools. Really.
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Old Mar 19, 2009, 12:35 AM   #14
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Greg, this guy is obviously a troll who has run out of forums to be run out of..A know-it-all who wants to talk at you and not with you. Not worth replying to. Good-night. Robert
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Old Mar 19, 2009, 5:18 AM   #15
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************ wrote:
Quote:
If that is what you think, then I have to tell you that you are flat f-ing wrong.
And at dpr and many other internet forums, the mods are so concerned with "civility" that the let stupidity run rampant. And if that is the way that they run this forum, then I will be happy when they ban me from it. For I have better things to do with my time than to waste it with idiots and fools. Really.
This will be your only warning on this matter. We don't accept such language or intimated language as our reader base is very varied in age and they don't need to be reading this sort of thing.

If you can express your opinions with eloquence, without resorting to deformation of character or unnecessary language then please do (this is a general comment to our members), if you are not then please don't clutter up the board with posts.

Please remember behind these posts there are real people with real and varied experiences who have real emotions. This is something that is easy to forget but it isimperative that we always take this into consideration when posting. Not to say that we don't express our opinions and share our experience but that we do it with respect.

This way we all can learn, not a single photographer has learnt everything there is to learn, they have not honed their style or captured the perfect shot. Anyone who thinks they have should reconsider their goals and ability.

I will leave this thread open for now in the hope that if there are more posts they will be more positive and respectful.

Mark


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Old Mar 19, 2009, 5:19 AM   #16
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Isn't it fairly obvious? All formats have their advantages and disadvantages. Choose the one that suits your needs. :-)

With larger formats you get to capture more photons, this is good for quality.

Bigger formats need longer focal lengths for a given field of view.

Larger format cameras and lenses are heavier, bigger, more expensive and a lot less convenient.

Larger format cameras will generally produce results that most viewers, even completely non-technical ones, will perceive as better. This is true even at surprisingly small print sizes.

However the march of progress in camera, lens and film/sensor design means that smaller formats are often "good enough" today when they were not good enough yesterday.

So you pay your money and take your pick. We all want large format quality and small format price and convenience. Technical progress helps a lot.

The sweet spots for me ito quality, value, convenience, size, etc:

1. MF and LF film for BW photography.
2. 24x36mm sensor DSLR cameras like the 5DMk2, D700, A900.
3. The new Micro4/3 cameras.
4. The fabulous digital P&S wonders like the Canon SD series.

:-)

P.S. This is a friendly, family oriented forum. The technical knowledge here is generally less than on DPR, but people are much less aggressive and opinionated.

As a guideline, don't write anything you wouldn't want your 10-year-old daughter to read.
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Old Mar 19, 2009, 6:25 AM   #17
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Hawgwild wrote:
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Greg, this guy is obviously a troll who has run out of forums to be run out of..A know-it-all who wants to talk at you and not with you. Not worth replying to. Good-night. Robert
Hi Robert.

I've thought about it, and I suppose I made a wrong decision, but I deleted all of my posts on this thread. I just don't want to be associated with this.

I'm steering clear and thanks for the support.

Greg
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Old Mar 19, 2009, 9:13 AM   #18
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"A know-it-all who wants to talk at you and not with you. Not worth replying to."

Most experts have to work hard to avoid this complex.

But in topics like photography you can be an expert at it and an idiot at the same time, thus complicating the discussion of photographic topics immensely, especially in open Internet forums.

In this case, on this topic, there is little "discussion" to be had, really. The type of gear that you want to use, that you *should* use, depends on the type of shots that you like to take, but there is some feedback on that, because the quality of the shots that you take helps to determine the type of shots that you like to take. Still you have to have a taste for shooting animals to take a lot of shots of animals. Even so there are many ways to shoot animals...and the gear-preference is driven by other factors such as personal preference with regards to cost, size & weight. And indeed in taking the shots in the first place. But gear other than what I like to use sells and sells well because there are a lot of people out there who prefer to shoot it for the shots that they like to take, or maybe even they like to take the same shots that I like to take but can't afford the same gear that I buy. Or maybe they just don't want to carry big, bulky gear. There are a whole host of reasons for buying a particular camera & lens. Does that mean that we have to entertain stupid ones? Likewise, do we have to entertain stupid comments? I personally find stupid comments to be rude and offensive because they demonstrate either a lack of concern for my intelligence & my time or a blatant lack of realization of the limited intelligence of the poster, or a sheer lack of concern for their own limited intelligences & the consequences, if they *do* realize it.

I don't mind discussing these issues in general. I do mind discussing these issues with an idiot. I don't want to waste my time slogging through some idiots' stupid posts. If that distinction isn't clear to you then I probably wouldn't enjoy discussing these issues with you either. The fact is that we all have opinions, that doesn't automatically make them pleasant for others to hear. But if we restrict ourselves to only hearing what we think are pleasant opinions, then we isolate ourselves from the truth...and sometimes that truth is very unpleasant, even painful, yet, those who avoid the truth today inevitably end up paying twice the price tomorrow, when they have to deal with it. You can only hide behind the rules of "pleasant conversation" for so long. I'm not here to insult or to troll but I have limited patience with idiots. Beyond that mainly I've said what I have to say on this, and if someone has an intelligent reply or comment to add I'd love to hear it. I would love to see it. Other than that I'm going to keep my mouth shut, I've said enough already.
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Old Mar 19, 2009, 10:03 AM   #19
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************ wrote:
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I'm not here to insult or to troll but I have limited patience with idiots. Beyond that mainly I've said what I have to say on this, and if someone has an intelligent reply or comment to add I'd love to hear it. I would love to see it. Other than that I'm going to keep my mouth shut, I've said enough already.
Possibly I wasn't clear when I said about being positive and respectful. That includes repeatedly callingother members idiots.

It is good to post samples that you have createdwhen making such claims and also look at the work that members are producing with different kit.

I have closed this topic now and trust that things will improve in the future.
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