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Old Jun 15, 2009, 3:54 PM   #11
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Mike

Thank you very much for posting the images, I find it very interesting that the picture with the flash actually turned out darker. in looking at the exif info I find a couple of things interesting, so allow me to ask ..
In looking at the exposer time in picture #1 its 1/15s and in #2 1/30s , if I'm looking at this correctly #1 has half the exposer time yet looks much brighter than #2, can I safely assume this is cause the ISO is 400 as apposed the 100 of #2 ?

Actually I just answered my own question

"ISO - The speed or specific light-sensitivity of a camera is rated by ISO numbers such as 100, 400, etc. The higher the number, the more sensitive it is to light. As with film, the higher speeds usually induce more electronic noise so the image gets grainier. ISO is the abbreviation for International Standards Organization. (In the good old days it was known as the "ASA film speed.")"

However I do have another question, is the ISO adjustable in increments ?
Say if one wanted to use the flash, could you increase the ISO to say 200 ?



mattyb

Thanks for the link, in looking at the stats on the two they seem very similar.
http://steves-digicams.pgpartner.com...st=product_tab


http://steves-digicams.pgpartner.com...st=product_tab
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Old Jun 15, 2009, 5:15 PM   #12
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What can I say? I'm a sheep.

I bought what a lot of other people bought and seemed happy with

I did over 300 photos this weekend, and really appreciated my little SX10, the movable screen with Live View came in handy for shots like this.

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Old Jun 15, 2009, 5:22 PM   #13
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You're welcome, James.

Yes, you can change the ISO in modes other than "intelligent auto." In the camera's menu it's called "SENSITIVITY." You can select 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1600. I think there are a few circumstances when the camera will automatically choose ISO 3200, but I don't recall what they are. At this point I usually shoot in either "aperture priority" or "manual" modes. But I still use "intelligent auto" a fair amount because it usually does a pretty good job - sometimes better than I do, to be honest - but I'm learning.

The goal is to try to take the shot at the lowest ISO you can because the higher the ISO, the more noise there is in the photo, as you've noted. And the amount of noise that's acceptable is purely subjective and depends on what you want to do with the photo. The larger the photo the more noticeable the noise.

I don't print many hard copies of photos, but I'll frequently enlarge them and crop out a portion to send to family and friends via email, or to post on the web. That's when the higher noise becomes more noticeable. I don't really care for anything over ISO 200 on this camera when I'm cropping portions of the photo. To me anything over ISO 200 produces a picture that too noisy/grainy for cropping. And I much prefer ISO 100.

I want to clarify that I really like this camera. This is a great camera to help someone learn about photography. I've taken some fantastic shots with it. I'd also like to emphasize that not all indoor, low-light shots are "bad." But, IMO, they crop up enough to make me really wish this thing had a hot-shoe for an external flash. From my reading around the web, this doesn't seem to be an issue for most people, although I have seen some mention of it. For this reason only I wish I'd gone for a Canon or something else that does have a hot shoe.

There apparently are ways to add an external flash to this camera, but they are expensive and clunky, IMO. And certainly not worth it for a P&S camera, no matter how good it is.

Hope this helps!

Mike

Mike
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Old Jun 16, 2009, 10:19 AM   #14
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James,

Thought I'd post a couple of crops showing the difference between using and not using the flash. In this case the flash shot comes out a lot nicer. These are of one of the hot-cross buns my wife made a couple of months ago. They were both taken in "intelligent auto" mode and are of the same bun. These are full, 100% crops. I blew up each picture to full size and then cropped out a small portion.

The first shot is without flash. The second shot is with flash. Glancing at the EXIF data, the exposures are the same with the exception being the ISO. The camera chose ISO 400 for the non-flash shot and ISO 100 for the flash shot. Of course, I can't tell how steadily I held the camera for each shot.

Mike
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Old Jun 16, 2009, 9:59 PM   #15
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Mattyb

Thanks for the picture it looks good, The hot shoe on the camera is an added plus,
I do however have mixed emotions on the moveable LCD, I'm not sure if its a good thing or bad thing... Nevertheless it is a highly rated camera. in fact it may even make a good other... pondering on this one now .. , do you have any low light pictures and, exif info ?

Mike

Thanks again for the pictures.
Let me ask you, when you say you blew the picture up then cropped it, do you mean you opened the image at its native 3648x2736 resolution ? or, did you scale the image up ( increased size ) then cropped ?

I do find it interesting that things had reversed in these pictures and, I cant help but wonder about the lighting from one room to the next , what I mean is fluorescent vs incandescent lights ?? could the light spectrum be influencing those auto settings one way or the other is what I'm wondering ...
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 12:26 AM   #16
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You're welcome again, James.

I meant the former. I opened the pictures at their full, native resolutions and then cropped out the parts I posted. Both sets of pictures were taken in the same type of lighting - incandescent. However the hot-cross buns were in a room that has small, white globes enclosing the lights. Plus there was another light to the right that was not enclosed in a globe. (The "microwave" shots had direct lighting, i.e., no globes.)

I'm attaching scaled down versions of the two full "hot-cross bun" pictures. The EXIF data remains the same, of course. I also had to slightly lessen the quality of the flash picture (to 99%) when I changed the resolution so it would be small enough to attach to this post. The first picture is "no flash" and the second picture is "with flash."

I'm just learning a lot of this myself. Any difference in lighting will influence the settings - I mean, the camera captures light. A small change in lighting means the camera reads things differently. You could move the camera just a bit and the settings might change. Maybe the angle of the light hitting the lens is different or perhaps the reflection of the light off the "subject" is different. I guess both of the above apply and probably other factors. And the light bounces off walls and ceilings. The type of light will also make a difference.

I don't think this changes, regardless of what camera a person uses. I think it's kind of a neat challenge, and what makes learning about photography so interesting. And I don't think there is any perfect camera. As you're doing now, you make a budget, learn about the cameras you're considering and then make the best decision you can.

I've been reading posts on this forum for about 7-8 months. One theme that stands out is that people are always trying to get the "right" lighting. And these are people with DSLRs, equipment that's considerably "better" than any P&S superzoom. If you do get the FZ28, I advise you to get another camera with a flash hot-shoe, since you're buying two. (But I won't hate you if you don't!) That way you've got your bases covered. I've no idea what kind of flashes are available for those superzooms, but presumably they'd be better than a built-in flash.

Feel free to ask more questions.

Mike
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 7:13 AM   #17
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Looking at Mike's intriguing pairs of pictures, I think that the metering system using flash must be quite different from that without. I hope someone who knows more than me about flash can comment authoritatively.

This may be because the metering without flash guesses the exposure in advance, while the flash metering may quench the flash when it thinks it's had enough reflected light. Is this a possibility, anyone?

In either case, the answer is to inspect all shots carefully & immediately on the LCD screen (or EVF if you have one), and if the exposure's wrong, take another, with different settings, until you get it right. This of course precludes 'intelligent' auto, and needs some manual intervention, if only in EV and flash adjustment. And it's no good if you're in a hurry.

I always say that we're a long way from an 'intelligent' camera that's cleverer than a human brain with just a tiny bit of photographic knowledge. What we need is a camera that flashes up 'I don't know - will this do?' and if you answer "no" makes intelligent suggestions about what to try next.

Without flash, I do this in advance using live preview in the EVF, twiddling EV until exposure looks correct (on Kodak Z712, mostly), but I gather that round here many folk don't believe it. With flash, or without, I have a few seconds' 'quickview' pop up after every shot, and just take an adjusted shot again if I don't like it.

Last edited by Alan T; Jun 17, 2009 at 7:15 AM.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 7:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James G View Post
Mattyb

Thanks for the picture it looks good, The hot shoe on the camera is an added plus,
I do however have mixed emotions on the moveable LCD, I'm not sure if its a good thing or bad thing... Nevertheless it is a highly rated camera. in fact it may even make a good other... pondering on this one now .. , do you have any low light pictures and, exif info ?

Mike
Ah, (my experience) low light + SX10 =

I don't have an external flash, and I've found that pictures taken with the flash of the SX10 aren't the best (to put it mildly). Remember that its usually kids indoors for my low light situations. Noise is bad above ISO 400, really bad. If they're sitting still you can get some good shots without using the flash but its poor performance is one of the reasons that I'm getting a SLR (D40). Depending on budget I'll probably get an flash or a fast prime later.

Last edited by mattyb; Jun 17, 2009 at 7:32 AM. Reason: Tried finding some low light non-flash photos that are good-ish. I haven't yet.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 10:31 AM   #19
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Alan T wrote:

"This of course precludes 'intelligent' auto, and needs some manual intervention, if only in EV and flash adjustment. And it's no good if you're in a hurry."

Alan has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. I'm beginning to understand why I've seen so many posts exhorting people to really get to know their cameras - in order to set up the next shot as well and as quickly as possible.

Comment on articulating LCDs. I've never used one and I don't know how durable they are. However, I've been taking a lot of flower pictures around the yard for the last few months. Particularly for smaller plants that are lower to the ground, I've frequently wished the FZ28 had an articulating screen, esp. when the ground has been wet and/or cold. There have also been other circumstances when having one would have been really handy. Having an articulating LCD will be a major plus when it comes time to pick out my next camera - which is still a long way off.

I should also probably mention that this is my second FZ28. I exchanged my original camera because I thought it might be defective due to its indoor flash performance. Its replacement, my current FZ28, performs in the same manner.

Interestingly, this camera replaced an old 2-megapixel Olympus camera that I've used for years. While the FZ28's pictures are greatly superior in just about every way, the old Olympus produced more consistently acceptable indoor flash shots than the FZ28. In other words, there were more "keepers." Again, this applies to using the FZ28 in "intelligent auto" mode.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 9:24 AM   #20
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Thanks again for al the informative replies ...

This morning I started googling hard and heavy on light metering, after all I'm rather sure we would all agree that knowledge is the key ..., I did find an interesting tutorial.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...a-metering.htm
I'll spend the next couple of days doing research on just how the features and settings work. After reading the above link I went back to look at the exif info on the pics.
It shows metering mode "Matrix" , this confused me cause in the specs for the camera it shows " Light Metering Intelligent Multiple / Center-weighted / Spot " not matrix ..
So just what is matrix ?? I'm going to assume , the camera was set for intelligent multiple and, I cant help but wonder if would would have been better, if set for center-weighted ..
By the way , Thanks Alan for bringing up metering cause thats what triggered my googling, you asked a very interesting question.
" This may be because the metering without flash guesses the exposure in advance, while the flash metering may quench the flash when it thinks it's had enough reflected light. Is this a possibility, anyone? "
One thing I can say for sure, I'll understand the camera before I even open the box.
I am however now considering getting the SX10 along with my FZ28S simply cause it does have the hot shoe and, spec wise the are rather similar. I'm still not 100% certain. I'll just need to put my feelers out there.

Most of the pictures I'll be taking from the start will be out doors so, lighting will not really be an issue however, it will be used inside as well so.
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