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Old Sep 5, 2009, 12:00 PM   #141
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I think I got lost in all of that. Hopefully I can figure out the dslr. I feel like I have no clue about anything. Trying to soak it all in.
However I went to the football game last night to watch my 2 youngest do their cheer chick thing at half time (little girls get to cheer with the big girls). My pictures stink from my old point and shoot. I definitely want to get and learn about dslrs and last night was perfect proof of that.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 12:17 PM   #142
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Again.... (just to set your expectations).

The lenses we're discussing are not bright enough for night sports in a stadium or indoor sports (unless you want a lot of blur from subject movement, and/or take photos when the players are relatively still versus during action plays).

So, don't expect to get great results from a dSLR either, unless you get brighter lenses for one (which can be relatively expensive for something like a ballgame in a stadium at night). For example, a Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX HSM lens sells for around $800 now (and if you're not close enough to the action, you may not get the detail you want from it). That's one reason some of our members use a Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 for sports (which is currently selling for around $3200 now). It all depends on your expectation of quality.

You'd also need to use higher ISO speeds (think ISO 3200 if you fill the frame much), which means higher noise levels in your images for shooting sports in low light.

Your best bet for lower noise at ISO speeds that high would be a more expensive dSLR than we're discussing. For example, something like the Canon t1I, 50D or 7D in the Canon lineup; or Sony A500, A550 or A700 in the Sony Lineup; or a Nikon D5000, D90 or D300 in the Nikon lineup.

Low light sports is very demanding on equipment.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 12:36 PM   #143
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T,

I just started using a DSLR more seriously this year, so I know how you feel about the technical stuff.

You want to take a sharp image, so you want to use the faster shutter speed. In order to do that, you want a lens which delivers more light intensity (larger max aperture = smaller min f-number). Usually, kit lenses have the f/3.5 minimum f-number, so compared to expensive lenses (f/2.8, f/2.0 etc…), they are slow in low light.


- Hiro

EDIT: Jim already responded to you excellently.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:14 PM   #144
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BTW, Sony has some good specials going right now on dSLR bundles. For example, you can get a kit including the A230, 18-55mm and 55-200mm lenses for $579.99 (which is only slightly more than the A230 kit without the 55-200mm lens). You'll see similar bundles on some of the other dSLR models.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...4&N=4294954580

Note that other vendors selling Sony gear appear to have the same prices on those types of bundles via instant rebates. I even see one of the bundles like that at Ritz/Wolf Camera right now in their latest sale paper showing the two lens kit with a nice HVL-F42AM flash at $829. See their labor day sale:

http://www.ritzcamera.com/static/con.../weeklyad.html

But, I don't know how long the prices will last (Sony tends to offer similar deals on a frequent basis).
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:17 PM   #145
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Default A detailed look at the A-230 ISO 1600 Photo

Hi there, Rita, T, and Hiro-

OK, as you probably recall, Rita asked for some comparison photos from super zoom cameras to compare against last night's (09/04) photo of Bradley with the Sony A-230 DSLR camera.

Therefore, I selected the Panasonic FZ-28 (the super zoom that most people acknowledge to be "the king of the hill" among super zoom cameras) and the Kodak Z-1012 10 mp super zoom that has excellent high ISO capability.

So, to begin this comparison, we wil re-look at last night's A-230 DSLR photo situating side by side with a 100% crop of that photo. Naturally, you are probably asking yourselves, what am I supposed to be looking for in this comparison. The photo on the left of any of these comparisons realistically show what that photo would look like in a 2" X 3" print. Note that that size is 50% less than your normal 4" X 6" print. The 100% crop of the photo on the left, which I have mounted to the right hand side of the page shows what the photo would look like as a print if it were printed out in a 5" X 7" size print. When you look at the 100% crop (on the right, remember) you looking at image definition (your ability to see fine detail) and the presence of electronic noise. Noise is seen as the "blotchiness" and the appearance of multi colored dots in the image.

Because this first comparison is done with the Sony A-230 DSLR camera that has a much larger CMOS type imager, the 100% crop will show greater definition and less electronic noise.

T- Please don't feel snowed under by this thread. I am always very happy indeed to answer in detail any questions that anyone might have. And there are no dumb questions, so please do not hesitate to speak up and post your questions.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:19 PM   #146
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Default Panasonic FZ-28 ISO 1600 Comparison

OK, Folks-

Here is our second side by side comparison sheet. It is from the Panasonic FZ-28 super zoom camera. It is the 100& crop, on the right hand side of the page, that really shows graphically that the small CCD type imager used by the FZ-28 has a much more difficult time with definition and electronic noise.

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Last edited by mtclimber; Sep 5, 2009 at 1:22 PM.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:28 PM   #147
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Default Kodak Z-1012 Comparison at ISO 1600

OK, Folks-

Here we have a side by side comparison of a photo from the Kodak Z-1012 camera. Interestingly enough, the Z-1012 actually does a somewhat better job handling the definition and electronic noise than the FZ-28. However, at the end of the day, the photo from the Sony A-230 DSLR camera is still cleaner and shows superior definition and absence of most electronic noise.

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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:28 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtclimber View Post
...Because this first comparison is done with the Sony A-230 DSLR camera that has a much larger CMOS type imager...[/
It's larger, but it's a CCD (not a CMOS) sensor. Most 10MP dSLR models from Nikon and Sony (for example, the Nikon D40x, D60, D3000; Sony A230, A330) use an APS-C size Sony 10MP CCD Sensor.

Most 12MP dSLR models from Nikon and Sony (Nikon D5000, D90, D300; Sony A500, A700) use an APS-C size Sony 12MP CMOS Sensor.

Full frame models (models with a 35mm size sensor) like the Nikon D700 and D3 from Nikon use a Nikon designed 12MP CMOS Sensor (which is super for low light use at higher ISO speeds, although these models are not cheap). 24MP full frame models from Nikon and Sony (Nikon D3x, Sony A900, Sony A850) use a Sony 24MP CMOS Sensor.

Canon makes their own sensors used in their dSLR models (all CMOS right now). But, they use sensors from other manufacturers for their point and shoot models.

Pentax uses Sony sensors in some of it's dSLR models (for example, Sony's 10MP CCD Sensor). For their newer K20D and K7, Pentax is using Samsung CMOS Sensors.

Most current Olympus and Panasonic dSLR models are using Panasonic sensors (although some of the earlier Olympus dSLR models were using Kodak sensors).
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:39 PM   #149
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You are all so kind. Jim C, I am guessing I could at least get better pics than I did last night. I am not even sure if I will be able to pick my daughters out of some of the photos. lol Plus my lag time is so bad they were totally off doing something else so I missed the moment most of the time! The football field was so bright, it would really have that much of an effect? Well I don't know that I will buy an $800 or $3200 dollar lens right now but surely my photos will be better with those lenses than what I am getting now, right?
As always you all are amazing!! Thanks for the tips on the Sonys - I am definitely going to look into it. About how far will that ?-200mm lens take a good picture?
Thanks,
t
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 1:44 PM   #150
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Good Morning, JimC-

Thanks for your two posts this morning. Your first post addresses the problem of using lenses on DSLR cameras that are not very "bright," and that typically start at F 3.5 instead of F 2.8, F 2.0, F1.8, or F1.4. Because the real need is to get as much light as possible to the camera's imager to properly record the photo is the primary requirement to get your photo, if you shoot a high percentage of low light level photos, the a "brighter" lens is the best thing you can use for low light level photos. Your point is well made.

In your second post this morning, JimC, you supplied added information about the imagers used in a variety of DSLR cameras. Many thanks for that additional information.

None the less, the physical size of the imagers used in DSLR cameras, such as the Sony A-230 DSLR and the Canon XS DSLR cameras, is much,much larger, be they CCD imagers in their construction, or CMOS in their construction, when compared to the physical size of the imagers use in the super zoom camera that we are looking at quite closely in this thread such as the Panasonic FZ-28 and the Kodak Z-1012.

The physical size and megapixel count/density of any digital camera's imager directly affects the outcome of any photo taken by that camera.

Sarah Joyce
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