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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:30 AM   #201
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OK - looking at the two images you brought over - to my eyes there's an enormous difference in quality. Not surprising. The 5d is a full frame camera and has great high ISO performance. The photo is also exposed properly. The other photo is underexposed.

Now - back to the first image - most of the body is relatively still - the feet are moving and that's where you see blur. At 1/160 you can get some shots - again where there's a pose or a strait jump. But the more motion the less likely the shot will turn out.

Of course - when I look at the exif on the 2nd image - that person is a little mistaken. That shot was taken with a D200 at aperture f1.8 1/2500. Quite a bit different than 6.3. That's also a tremendously bright gym. The first photo is much more indicative of the type of gym you'd be shooting in.
My bad, if you read further on the thread that photo was posted on, they figured that out...but he said that the person using the D200 was the owner of the camera store and a friend of the mom with the D80, and they were in agreement that the D80 was getting way better photos than it "should" have even so...they weren't that different from the D200 (they were taking the photos side by side to compare)

I still think that first shot is pretty awesome, even if it was a peak point! You are saying that it's because it's a 5D, but it's still f4 at ISO 3200 (not f2.8).

I guess it just goes to show that the right photographer can get decent shots even if the equipment isn't ideal? If you read that whole thread (which I did, even though it took me 2 hours!), the OP demonstrates quite an improvement in his photos with practice and tips from others.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:33 AM   #202
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to be perfectly honest, getting action shots with a walkaround 18-200 is a crapshoot. sure, you will get lucky now and again. but more often than not, the stars will not align. they do not have the light gathering ability, nor do they focus accurate or fast enough.

the 70-200 f4 though is a strong lens. and with high enough iso (3200) u can make it work indoors. so not that it can't do well, its just that a 2.8 will do better and more flexible.
I get what you are saying, good point! The percentage of keepers will probably be higher with the 2.8...
also, reading that other thread, the DOF comes into play at those apertures, too. Seems there will be quite a learning curve once I get the camera
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 8:14 AM   #203
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I still think that first shot is pretty awesome, even if it was a peak point! You are saying that it's because it's a 5D, but it's still f4 at ISO 3200 (not f2.8).
.
Well, equipment used in that shot was quite good. The 5d has better ISO 3200 performance than most DSLRs because it is full frame. The 70-200 f4 is a proffessional grade lens and very sharp. So the combo is capable of quite nice photos. However, the 1/160 shutter speed limits the TYPE of shot you can get. And, at 1/160 based on your comments you would need Image Stabilization or a monopod (canon sells 70-200 f4 with IS for $1000 or without IS for $560).

But again, 1/160 you're going to be constrained an awful lot on the types of shots you get. So that's a good chunk of change ffor a limited number of shots. If you already have the gear, sure - nothing to lose by trying. But to spend that much on gear primarily for gymnastics (because you already admit you don't want a bulky camera / lens for everything else you shoot) it's just not a great investment IMO. But it's your money.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 11:12 AM   #204
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javacleve-

It is a matter of using the right too for the job. The laws of physics are unbending.

Have a great day.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 12:35 PM   #205
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Point and shoot users have only one option: to use a wide aperture.
Sarah Joyce
Actually, even the widest aperture will not blur the background because in reality, say f2.8 on a P&S, it represents f5.6 or even f6.1 on a DSLR. The alternative is to use zoom (the long zoom models will work best). As you zoom in, you reduce DoF. So, if you step back from the subject and zoom in on it, you are going to get better results in terms of blurred background than if you try to shoot WA at f2.8.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 2:22 PM   #206
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Well, equipment used in that shot was quite good. The 5d has better ISO 3200 performance than most DSLRs because it is full frame. The 70-200 f4 is a proffessional grade lens and very sharp. So the combo is capable of quite nice photos. However, the 1/160 shutter speed limits the TYPE of shot you can get. And, at 1/160 based on your comments you would need Image Stabilization or a monopod (canon sells 70-200 f4 with IS for $1000 or without IS for $560).

But again, 1/160 you're going to be constrained an awful lot on the types of shots you get. So that's a good chunk of change ffor a limited number of shots. If you already have the gear, sure - nothing to lose by trying. But to spend that much on gear primarily for gymnastics (because you already admit you don't want a bulky camera / lens for everything else you shoot) it's just not a great investment IMO. But it's your money.
Makes sense!

also, the guy posting /learning in that thread got a 40D, if I recall...further up the food chain from my budget (to borrow a phrase from Sarah )
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 9:31 PM   #207
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Shopping results tonight: the Nikon D90 with 70-200 mm f2.8 is a BRICK. I liked what I saw on the camera, but it is way too heavy and big for me (even with the regular lens), and awkward (my hand felt stretched to reach the shutter button).
At another store I tried the Nikon D5000 and it was better, being smaller. Even better was the Canon 50D, even though it was otherwise close to the D90 in size, because the shutter button was more towards the front and lower down, rather than perched on top.
But the one I really really really liked was the Olympus E620 (for size, etc.). I told the store manager (who owns the D90) that I had heard it wasn't the best for sports and he seemed a little surprised, and thought he'd had customers use it and like it--but of course, we are always talking relative and subjective here. Maybe it's not as good for a pro, but will it be okay for me?? He suggested I buy it and try it, and return it if necessary (within 30 days)...so I may just do that for the upcoming meet.

On the other hand, the Nikon D5000 hasn't been one we've talked about, and it does go to ISO 3200...thoughts?
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:04 PM   #208
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javacleve-

The Nikon D-5000 has the same high ISO capabilities of the D-90, but because there is no focusing motor built into the camera body, it can only use Nikon's AF-S category lenses.

The Olympus E-620 is a nice camera, I own one, however, it is not a DSLR camera that I would ever characterize as a high ISO capable camera.

So, once again, we are back again to a lens choice. Based your observation at the gym this evening (10/16), how close, in feet, were the 2 ladies taking photos with their Costco sourced Panasonic cameras, that we need a sample from and the model? You see how close you can be, REALLY does make a BIG difference in the lens choice.

I have attached a photo taken with a Sigma 30mm F 1.4 lens mounted on a Nikon D-50, using ISO 800. Please keep in mind that I was taking these photos right at the very edge of the stage.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:25 PM   #209
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I know the Oly E30 with SWD lenses are some of the faster and better focusing combinations out there. But it uses a little better AF system than the E-620. Also, the high ISO capabilities of the E-620 don't quite match the others, esp in JPEG, gets a little closer in RAW.

the nikon d5000 is a great camera, and most of d90 stuffed into a smaller package, but again nikon isn't putting motor drives in this level of camera. i think not putting motor drives in their lower line of slrs is a mistake personally.

as an owner of a canon 50d. if you enjoyed the feel of it and its shooting characteristics, it would serve your purposes very well. its fast and responsive, handles high ISOs as well as any, focus's fast and accurate and offers 6.3 fps continuous shooting. obviously, this doesnt come without its price, as its considerably more expensive than the e620s, d5000s, t1i's.

i am not sure if it has been mentioned yet, as this is a long thread. but i have seen some good deals on sony's a700s here lately. body only for around 800$. thats a heck of a lot of camera for that price. from what i have seen, esp since they updated their firmware, it holds its own quite nicely to nikon d90s, canon 50ds, etc. and has built in image stab.
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:45 PM   #210
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I know the Oly E30 with SWD lenses are some of the faster and better focusing combinations out there. But it uses a little better AF system than the E-620. Also, the high ISO capabilities of the E-620 don't quite match the others, esp in JPEG, gets a little closer in RAW.

the nikon d5000 is a great camera, and most of d90 stuffed into a smaller package, but again nikon isn't putting motor drives in this level of camera. i think not putting motor drives in their lower line of slrs is a mistake personally.

as an owner of a canon 50d. if you enjoyed the feel of it and its shooting characteristics, it would serve your purposes very well. its fast and responsive, handles high ISOs as well as any, focus's fast and accurate and offers 6.3 fps continuous shooting. obviously, this doesnt come without its price, as its considerably more expensive than the e620s, d5000s, t1i's.

i am not sure if it has been mentioned yet, as this is a long thread. but i have seen some good deals on sony's a700s here lately. body only for around 800$. thats a heck of a lot of camera for that price. from what i have seen, esp since they updated their firmware, it holds its own quite nicely to nikon d90s, canon 50ds, etc. and has built in image stab.
Thanks again for your informative posts!
What does the motor drive do for you--faster focus?
I did like the Canon 50D, although it is still a tad large for my taste, but it's more a matter of the budget on that one, especially since I will still need to get a lens. But my dear hubby did say he might have a bonus coming, in which case he would share it with me, so I may eventually be able to swing it
The A700 is another strong contender; they just didn't have it at the store I went to.
I guess I have to weigh the importance price, size and ISO capabilities, in the end...
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