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Old Dec 23, 2009, 7:16 AM   #11
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JimC,

And I was looking at amazon before they ran out of the t1i, and I did not see 805 for the 2 lens kit let alone the 782 price you are speaking of.
Here's the link to the page with the T1i. Look to the right of the page for several options of where to buy from. If you buy from amazon itself (currently out of stock) price is $719.
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-T1i-Digi...1573940&sr=8-1

Now, here's the link for the 55-250 lens. Again, look to the right for buying options - from Amazon itself the cost is $255
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-55-250mm...1574065&sr=1-1

$719 + 255 = 974

If you add those two items to your cart (and they MUST be from amazon not one of the other vendors) you'll see the $200 credit deducted for a total price of $774 plus shipping.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 7:18 AM   #12
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IOW, you're complaining because you can't get discounts on top of discounts. ;-)
NO, it's a REBATE on top of a discount. The manufacturer pays the rebate. It costs B&H nothing to pass on the rebate - Canon eats the cost. And, if you look at the rebate announcement fine print at Canon it doesn't say you have to buy a 'kit'. Just that you have to buy the 2 products and they need to be on the same receipt. Amazon understands this and gives you the discount when you buy the 2 items separately and ignore all the gimmicky kits you could buy. B&H could do the exact same but this is a money making opportunity for them.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 7:34 AM   #13
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NO, it's a REBATE on top of a discount. The manufacturer pays the rebate. It costs B&H nothing to pass on the rebate - Canon eats the cost.
I would not make that assumption. Those types of discounts can be very complex as to what part the vendor has to eat and what part the manufacturer has to eat (not to mention waiting for the manufacturer to credit them for those types of promotions). It's rarely that simple (vendor gets a $200 check). I've seen vendors complain about those types of promotions for a long time (with some vendors even refusing to honor some of them, at the risk of losing their authorized dealer status). Just because Amazon can afford to do it, doesn't mean other vendors can.

Chances are, they made up a SKU just for the promotion, using the same prices Canon put in the promotion (suggest retail prices for the camera kit with the 18-55mm and 55-200mm). That way, they could still discount the camera and lens some if they're purchased separately (versus raising the prices for them back to suggested list to insure they didn't lose money by allowing them to be discounted twice due to the new Canon promotion).
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 8:35 AM   #14
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I would not make that assumption. Those types of discounts can be very complex as to what part the vendor has to eat and what part the manufacturer has to eat (not to mention waiting for the manufacturer to credit them for those types of promotions). It's rarely that simple (vendor gets a $200 check). I've seen vendors complain about those types of promotions for a long time (with some vendors even refusing to honor some of them, at the risk of losing their authorized dealer status). Just because Amazon can afford to do it, doesn't mean other vendors can.

Chances are, they made up a SKU just for the promotion, using the same prices Canon put in the promotion (suggest retail prices for the camera kit with the 18-55mm and 55-200mm). That way, they could still discount the camera and lens some if they're purchased separately (versus raising the prices for them back to suggested list to insure they didn't lose money by allowing them to be discounted twice due to the new Canon promotion).
Jim - I'd buy your explanation if that was what Henry came back and indicated they have to pay part of the rebate. He represents B&H on forums - and has yet to say that. No need to go into details. But originally his story was that the 'Kit' price didn't get updated when the price of a component dropped. But when pressed about reconciling that he defended the package price as being less than the individual price (after the discount was applied to the package). But has refused to address why the discount couldn't or shouldn't be applied to individually purchased components. Again, all he would have to do is say B&H has to absorb part of the rebate expense and people would accept it.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 8:54 AM   #15
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I haven't seen any comments from Henry. But, he may not be aware of all of the details as to how it got priced to begin with either. It could also be a simple mistake, which it sounds like he thought it was because the kit price was not updated to reflect price drops on the items separately. It could also be that he is not at liberty to discuss all of the details due to an NDA (or unique relationship with the manufacturer).

Applying discounts can be quite complex from a systems perspective, too. Their system may not be able to handle correctly applying discounts when items are purchased separately (hence the need for a separate SKU). A system capable of doing that would need to check for any special combinations of items in order to apply a given discount, and not all systems are capable of that behavior.

I spent a couple of years working as a Manager in the Consulting Services Group for JDA Software. I managed Store Systems resources out of the Atlanta Branch, where we customized retail information systems software to meet business requirements, and discounts were always pretty tricky, depending on how the retailers wanted to apply them and what types of discounts were being offered (with buy one get one free type sales, discounts on top of discounts, club card type discounts, etc.). It can be a real nightmare handling some of that kind of thing from a software perspective.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 9:33 AM   #16
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Jim,

There are always alternatives to software constraints. Like creating the sku for both. Then pricing it accordingly. If it was a mistake as Henry first claimed that's an easy fix - but it hasn't occured. And his tune changed. Here's the thread over at DP Review. You can read Henry's comments for yourself. Be sure to read comments from DSLRDAVE who spoke to B&H Customer Service. They told him you have to buy the pre-defined 'kit'. But read Henry's comments. As to any type of NDA that would preclude Henry from mentioning B&H pays any part of the rebate - I checked with some friends in retail they've never herd of anything like that. Specific terms - sure. But precluding the distributor from saying they have to absorb part of it? No.

The link takes you to the response from Henry where he tries his 'fuzzy math' for refuting the fact B&H requires you to buy the higher priced kit in order to get the rebate:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=34039981

In other words he keeps ignoring the fact that the kit price is what it is because B&H applies the rebate to the kit price. Which you'll see in plain english on B&Hs site (they explicitly show you they are subtracting $200 off the cost).

Last edited by JohnG; Dec 23, 2009 at 9:35 AM.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 9:59 AM   #17
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Yes. But, again, the discounted price after the $200 instant rebate is exactly the same price you see on the Canon promotion form for it when I checked it earlier. ;-)

So, you're able to buy that kit for $200 off the suggested list price from B&H. Sure, if they discounted the already discounted items by $200; you'd save more. But, there may be legitimate reasons why their business model doesn't allow that much discount (for example, it's impact to their bottom line). I would certainly not call it a scam, just because you found that kit cheaper somewhere else.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 10:06 AM   #18
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It's a scam because I can add both items to my cart at B&H. They will both be on the same receipt at an authorized retailer - that meets the criteria B&H set forth for getting the rebate. But B&H doesn't offer me the rebate. The terms and conditions of the rebate do NOT say the customer must pay MSRP. And Canon does NOT price control like say Apple does. Like it or not, adding the items separately in the cart meets the terms and conditions Canon published. So, if B&H refuses to honor the rebate without justification then yes it is a scam. The Amazon reference simply proves there aren't Canon stipulated price controls in place for purposes of the rebate.
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 10:48 AM   #19
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John:

I just don't see it that way, knowing B&H's reputation. There are too many other things that may be going on here.

System Constraints requiring them to bundle them in a single SKU to get the discount? Perhaps (as their system may not be able to match up separate items in order to apply an instant rebate that way unless they put them in the same SKU).

Unable to discount the [already discounted off of list price] items by another $200 because some of the rebate comes out of their bottom line? Perhaps (which is my best guess, since those types of promos are not always so simple from a vendor perspective; and bundling the items in a SKU allows them to discount it $200 from suggested list, while still allowing them to offer a discounted price on the separate items outside of that promotion).

Just because you found one vendor that allows the rebate on already discounted items doesn't mean that other vendors can do the same thing without negatively impacting their bottom line more than they can tolerate from a business perspective.

A combination of the above? Perhaps

Pricing mistake (i.e., the bundle SKU price wasn't updated to reflected the discounts on individual items)? Perhaps

Scam? Nope (and I get the feeling that Henry is still investigating from what I gather from the other thread you linked to).
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Old Dec 23, 2009, 11:20 AM   #20
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Guess we'll have to see what Henry comes back with. All he has to do (since he's chosen to comment) is answer the simple question:

If B&H offers these two items separately for $1005 and I add them to my cart, why can't B&H honor the Canon rebate of $200 and sell me the items for $805? You've speculated on some of the whys, but they need to answer it - and software constraints don't work because they've already shown they can create a new sku and apply the rebate. The ball is in their court. And I am absolutely willing to appologize on both forums if they come back with a legit explanation as to why offering the $200 rebate costs B&H anything (except lost revenue from the elevated kit price)
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