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Old Feb 20, 2010, 11:04 AM   #21
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Default Have you ever tried one....?

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Originally Posted by rjseeney View Post
I have heard that, but even still, AF still lags way behind...


This is where a lot of people have a misconception of the contrast-based af-system (based on VERY poor LiveView-experience in Canon- and Nikon-cameras...) of Panasonic anyway. Panasonic has the best contrast-based af-system available - being as fast as most consumer-dSLR's.


Check out: http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Pa..._G1/lens.shtml


Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 focusing
- "By eliminating the reflex mirror of a traditional DSLR, the Lumix G1 also loses their quick and effective phase-change AF systems. As such, auto-focusing on the G1 is a contrast-based system only, like a compact camera or the uninterrupted Live View modes of DSLRs. Along with the lack of an optical SLR viewfinder, this is one of the major concerns over Micro Four Thirds, as contrast-based AF systems on DSLRs to date have been slow in operation. But as you’ll discover, Panasonic’s engineers have solved the problem and the G1’s AF performance is as good, or even better than the phase-change system on most budget DSLRs."

and

- "All four of the AF modes employ a contrast-based system, but unlike those on existing DSLRs, the G1’s AF is very quick. A half-press of the shutter release in any of the four AF modes sees the subject acquired and focused in a split second"

And from dpreview.com: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pana...cg1/page10.asp

"Aside from the viewfinder, our biggest worry about the viability of the G1 - and all non-reflex interchangeable lens cameras - is the reliance on sensor-based contrast detect autofocus. Our experiences so far - with the live view modes on current DSLRs - haven't been promising; all are painfully slow and most are close to unusable for any non-static subject."

"The good news is that Panasonic's engineers have kept true to their word; the focus is not only astonishingly fast for a contrast detect system; it's easily as fast as any conventional SLR in this class. And unlike even most mid-range SLRs you get 23 area auto AF and the ability to place a single AF point almost anywhere in the frame - and that's before you throw in Panasonic's remarkable subject tracking AF and Face Detection.

Panasonic seems to have overcome the main problem currently associated with using live view on an SLR; focus speed."

Mind you - it's not a sports-shooters camera, but I want to clear up this misunderstanding. I hav had my G1 now for 3 months and I never have to wait on the af-system. Focusing is instantly!

:-))

Last edited by Walter_S; Feb 20, 2010 at 11:13 AM.
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Old Feb 20, 2010, 11:26 AM   #22
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I wasn't referring to the G1's focusing performance and never even mentioned the Panasonic m4/3 bodies...I an aware of the Panny's focusing performance, and was referring to the Oly EP-1 in my post I'm more interested in the EP-1 because of size weight and form. The G1 although small, is still pretty close to a DSLR in size, weight and form. The EP-1 is slightly smaller, and with the collapsible zoom is much closer to pocket size...I can carry my D5k just as easy as the G1.

Now the GF1 is of more interest, but it to has some warts that I'm not sure I can live with. Dynamic range and high ISO performance isn't up to the EP-1 and lack of in body IS turn me away from the GF1. Like I said, OLY and Pany, have a little bit to go in refining this product line, and they better do it soon before the big boys come to the game. And one of them will get it closer to right.
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Old Feb 20, 2010, 12:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rjseeney View Post
...and they better do it soon before the big boys come to the game...
Ha!
The two 'big boys' can't get their $ 4.000,- dSLR's to focus properly in LiveView yet, so they have their learning-curve cut out for themselfes.

Law of nature:
Before you start running, you have to be able to crawl...

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Old Feb 20, 2010, 2:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjseeney View Post
I have heard that, but even still, AF still lags way behind. Granted I won't be shooting sports or action with it, and might even be happy manually focusing in a lot of instances, but the poor lcd takes that option away from me. I just think the system needs more refinement to hit the mark for me. The bad part is, if Oly doesn't fix the many nits the camera has (specifically af and handling, and to a certain degree lenses) they will lose their advantage in being one of the first to market. The big two (Canon and Nikon) and probably Sony too, will be coming out with their own version soon and if they do a better job of getting it right, it will be tough for Oly to keep up.
I would not use the lcd with a ep2 or epl-1. I would invest in the evf with the epl-1. It is really a good evf. I did try the panny lens at the store on a ep-2, it is way faster in AF. Almost even with the GF1 in speed.

But I know the limits of the m4/3, and have no plans for sports with it. But I think that oly has a huge advantage over canon, nikon and sony with evil being first to market. They have way more lenses in the m4/3 to choose from. Yes the other may have adapters like the pen's for the full 4/3 lens, but that really defeats the concept of small and compact travel camera. You have a choice of the oly and panny lenses right now. The panny 20mm 1.7 is a very good lens. All are compact. A huge plus for being 2 years ahead of the rest.
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Old Feb 20, 2010, 4:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter_S View Post
Ha!
The two 'big boys' can't get their $ 4.000,- dSLR's to focus properly in LiveView yet, so they have their learning-curve cut out for themselfes.

Law of nature:
Before you start running, you have to be able to crawl...

Live view really means nothing me in my DSLR's because I always use the viewfinder, as do most DSLR users. They do work fine from what I understand using manual focus for macro purposes. What the big boys do understand is handling, and from what I've read across the board, there are some handling issues in terms of control that are annoyances with all the 4/3 bodies. And in my experience with Oly DSLR's I just couldn't get past some of the handling issues that kept me from using the camera easily and effectively. Again though micro 4/3 is a different beast, and it's going to have limitations and different purposes. I see it more as a travel camera/landscape/static situation camera. In it's current form it's no good for action, or sports and that's not what I want it for. As it stands, I still think Oly, and Panny need to come up with something more and fix some of the nits, or they will quickly lose their advantage, as you can be sure the big players will market the heck out of their product. I can't even find a Panny in a store to handle and you have to really work to find the Ep....and I live near a fairly large city.
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Old Feb 21, 2010, 9:54 AM   #26
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Just to share my thoughts as a GF1 user. This is just my personal opinions.

If you can wait, do wait, as Olympus and Panasonic are making announcements soon on their new micro 4/3 cameras and everybody else is unveiling their mirror-less versions.

If you can't and need one asap, I would seriously consider an E-P1 and the 20mm F1.7 lens:

- As a GF1 user, I do miss the image stabilisation especially in low light shooting conditions. Put on the 20mm and you have the best of both worlds.

- If you are going to use legacy lenses and manual focusing, get the E-P2, E-P1L or GF1 with EVF. If you are going to use purely AF lenses, save and get the E-P1 and use the spare cash for other things in life.

- E-P2 is an E-P1 + EVF at almost twice the price. E-P1L is an E-P1 with an option for the EVF but minus the control dials at slightly cheaper price.

- Shooting using the LCD vs an EVF is a different experience. I have this urge to bring it to eye level but I can live with composing using the LCD. People are less aware of being photographed or they generally don't care as much.

- If you need a viewfinder, there are always 3rd party optical viewfinders. If I give in to my 'wants', I may just get the Voigtlander 35/85/135mm viewfinder and set AF point to center and be done with it. This also will fit nicely with the 45mm F2.8 lens.

- 230K vs 460K LCD resolution, Olympus could have done better, but a higher resolution LCD is a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. This also depends if you do a lot of MF; if you do then a higher resolution LCD may be beneficial.

- I have not used the on-board flash on my GF1. The times that I did, I re-took the shot with a much higher ISO value and shot it in black and white. Or I just live with the noise and grain. Things may be different if I have stuck a gel card on my flash, or bought an external flash - but this defeats the purpose of portability and a fast lens.

- The auto focus speed of the GF1 is slightly faster than the E-P1. I don't shoot sports, nor action so I suppose, looking back, this wouldn't be a factor. However, get the 20mm F1.7 on the E-P1 and things will even up more slightly in terms of AF speed.

- A flip LCD; a 'nice to have' but a pretty darn useful 'nice to have' feature. If you fancy this, do consider the G1 (discontinued), GH1, and upcoming G models.

It seems that I am pushing the E-P1, but truth to be told, I have that itch right now which tells me to go buy the E-P1 and pass on the GF1 to my girlfriend. Or sell it to finance my E-P1

Hope it helps.

Justin.

Last edited by JustinY; Feb 21, 2010 at 9:57 AM.
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Old Feb 21, 2010, 10:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by rjseeney View Post
Live view really means nothing me in my DSLR's because I always use the viewfinder, as do most DSLR users...
You not using LiveView on your dSLR is besides the point here, rsjeeney - at least concerning what we were discussing here. May I remind you, that the topic was EVIL's and m4/3-cameras and their AF-systrem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjseeney View Post
...and they better do it soon before the big boys come to the game. And one of them will get it closer to right...
...in wich you claim that either Canon or Nikon will com up with an EVIL-like camera producing fast contrast-based AutoFocus - AND getting it better than the existing Oly and Panny's. Or so i understood your claim.


If Canon or Nikon really can come up with an EVIL-like camera - you seem to forget that Panasonic (I am not discussing Olympus, since I do not have any experience with Oly) will already have approxim. 2 years of a head-start with their well-working AF-system and neither of the 'big boys' have yet been able to produce anything close to Panasonics contrast-based AF-system.

What makes you think they (big boys) can produce a fast focussing contrast-based AF-system in a new EVIL-camera if they are unable to provide one in today's dSLR's...?

Belive me, if they were close of getting it right they would implement it in their dSLR's first, because even Sony is whipping their behinds when it comes to fast focusing in LiveView.

Now, you can say that you don't use LiveView and it wouln't make any difference to you - but it might make a hell of a lot of difference to people migrating from P&S to dSLR's, because they are used to LiveView and will expect it in a brand-new dSLR too.

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Old Feb 21, 2010, 12:50 PM   #28
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EP-L1 or the EP-2 if you want a another m4/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinY View Post
Just to share my thoughts as a GF1 user. This is just my personal opinions.

If you can wait, do wait, as Olympus and Panasonic are making announcements soon on their new micro 4/3 cameras and everybody else is unveiling their mirror-less versions.

If you can't and need one asap, I would seriously consider an E-P1 and the 20mm F1.7 lens:

- As a GF1 user, I do miss the image stabilisation especially in low light shooting conditions. Put on the 20mm and you have the best of both worlds.

- If you are going to use legacy lenses and manual focusing, get the E-P2, E-P1L or GF1 with EVF. If you are going to use purely AF lenses, save and get the E-P1 and use the spare cash for other things in life.

- E-P2 is an E-P1 + EVF at almost twice the price. E-P1L is an E-P1 with an option for the EVF but minus the control dials at slightly cheaper price.

- Shooting using the LCD vs an EVF is a different experience. I have this urge to bring it to eye level but I can live with composing using the LCD. People are less aware of being photographed or they generally don't care as much.

- If you need a viewfinder, there are always 3rd party optical viewfinders. If I give in to my 'wants', I may just get the Voigtlander 35/85/135mm viewfinder and set AF point to center and be done with it. This also will fit nicely with the 45mm F2.8 lens.

- 230K vs 460K LCD resolution, Olympus could have done better, but a higher resolution LCD is a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. This also depends if you do a lot of MF; if you do then a higher resolution LCD may be beneficial.

- I have not used the on-board flash on my GF1. The times that I did, I re-took the shot with a much higher ISO value and shot it in black and white. Or I just live with the noise and grain. Things may be different if I have stuck a gel card on my flash, or bought an external flash - but this defeats the purpose of portability and a fast lens.

- The auto focus speed of the GF1 is slightly faster than the E-P1. I don't shoot sports, nor action so I suppose, looking back, this wouldn't be a factor. However, get the 20mm F1.7 on the E-P1 and things will even up more slightly in terms of AF speed.

- A flip LCD; a 'nice to have' but a pretty darn useful 'nice to have' feature. If you fancy this, do consider the G1 (discontinued), GH1, and upcoming G models.

It seems that I am pushing the E-P1, but truth to be told, I have that itch right now which tells me to go buy the E-P1 and pass on the GF1 to my girlfriend. Or sell it to finance my E-P1

Hope it helps.

Justin.
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Old Feb 22, 2010, 6:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by shoturtle View Post
EP-L1 or the EP-2 if you want a another m4/3
If I had plentiful of spare cash, I would get the E-P2 without a doubt, but weighing my priorities and all, I think an E-P1 will serve me better than an E-P1L.

- the on-board flash I don't use: I will use the F1.7 lens, jack up ISO and/or shoot in black and white.
- the EVF option: I can live with composing with the LCD.
- the control dials: If I have to cycle through menus to change aperture and exposure compensation as opposed to just turning wheel thumbs, that might drive me crazy

My thoughts. I will do some soul searching the next few days. Sssshhh, don't tell my GF1 ...

Justin.
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Old Feb 22, 2010, 9:37 AM   #30
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LOL, I wont say a thing.
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