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Old Feb 22, 2010, 7:50 PM   #41
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Only the nikon have the crop sensor in their FX cameras. Very pricey.

And yes, it would be crop just like the zoom.
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Old Feb 22, 2010, 8:02 PM   #42
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About full frame cameras, the goal would have even better results in low light conditions, not just print larger - I can imagine these cameras performs even better with lower noise at higher ISO.

But to someone that just came from a lower level category, from fixed lens prosumers, I'm sure that APS-C cameras will provide much better results than I used to have, and a lot of fun for a long time, making a much higher investment unnecessary.

Actualy I see many photographers in events using cameras in this category - Nikon D90 seems to be very popular between them.

BTW, some places I read about "prosumer or amateur dSLRs" and "professional dSLRs". Is the full frame that makes this difference? So all of these cameras we are discussing are "amateur" graded dSLRs?
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Old Feb 22, 2010, 8:12 PM   #43
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The pentax k-x and canon 500D/t1i is sloted in there entry level dslr. But offer the same IQ as the next tier as they shear the same sensor. The 500D uses the 50D sensor, the d5000 uses the d90 sensor.

well the D90 and A500/550 are the next tier of camera the dslr pro/sumer level. They tend to be a bit bigger giving a faster burst rate. The canon model would be the 50D and pentax k-7.

Then we move up to the semipro where the canon 7D, nikon d300, sony a700, a850 are.

Then were move up to the pro canon 1Ds,1D and 5d's, sony A900, nikon d3 and d700 and so on. They generally have full frame sensor, except for the 1D from canon that uses a APS-H sensor.

The pro camera have FF sensor and bigger asp sensor.
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Old Feb 22, 2010, 11:42 PM   #44
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Good reference list to place the models. I started this discussion between Prosumer (advanced fixed lens models) and SLRs, and now I'm analyzing between Entry Level and Prosumer dSLRs...

One of the restrictions I had to the SLRs, when starting this topic, was about it's size - a Fixed prosumer (like P90) is very smaller than any SLR. But when migrating to dSLR it does not seem too much difference to carry a smaller Entry level (K-X or T1i) or the bigger ones (D90, A500, and even D5000 thas has almost same D90 size).

That's why once looking for dSLRs it seems rasonable to take something not so basic in the category...

In fact what decided to SLR over fixed lens prosumer ware the new resources, like wide and not so big lenses (18-200/250), live preview, movies, and maybe tilt LCD - all advantages I could find in a camera like P90 but with the advantages of a SLR...

The task now is to study all these models! I'm just filling my spread-sheet with specs... :-)
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Old Feb 23, 2010, 12:00 AM   #45
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The tilt screen is nice, but the resolution and size is a bit smaller and lower then a flat screen of the 500D and K-x. Some say the tilt is on more thing that can go wrong. It is up to your personal preference. Live view is nice, but I really never shoot with it unless I am check a shot for a tripod shot. And pentax, nikon and canon do not have a great live view AF system. So the debate on live view is moot between the three of these. Sony has the best live view for dslr, that is what they lend in the dslr segment. HD video is really over rate in the dslr. It still does not perform as well as a camcorder. I have used it 2 times since I got the camera. And that was for testing the feature only.

The D5000 is the same size as the k-x and 500D. But I was considering the prosumer level dslr, as I had a pro slr with a eos1. But since my wife does use the camera also, she prefer the lighter and smaller entry level camera. But the high end entry level camera like the 500D, K-x and d5000 all have excellent ability as their bigger brothers. Since most of them shear the same sensor, so imagine performance is really no difference.

Now if sports is a big thing for you, the bigger camera does faster frame rates. Like the canon 50D can take 6.3 shot a second compare to the 500D at 3.4. So since sports are not a big thing for me, the faster burst rate was not something i needed. It was just something more to have. It was like when I got my eos 1 to replace my old eos 630 slr. I never used the full abilities of the eos 1, but I just wanted to treat myself to a new camera when I finished collage. So I got a eos 1.

After walking around with a eos 1 for over 14 years, and my wife using for the last 4. When we switch we notice a big difference between bigger cameras like the canon 50D and nikon d90 and what we end up getting, the 500d. It is allot nicer to carry around.
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Old Feb 24, 2010, 3:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoturtle View Post
the d5000, d3000, d90 are all 1.5 crop body camera. I guess I am not understanding you. Or you are not understanding what the OP is asking.

because from my reading, if you put a 10-24 onto any one of these nikon, you have the aspect of 15-36mm. To get the 10-24 mm prospect you will need to put it on a full frame.
FX is full frame:

Again, here is the quote:
"DX-format, ultra wide-angle 2.4x zoom lens with focal length ranging from 10 to 24mm (picture angle is equivalent to a focal length of 15 to 36mm in FX- and 35mm formats)"

In other words, in a FF sensor it's a 15 to 36...

On any croped sensor the lens is exactly what it says it is.

You don't believe me?

From Wikopedia:
Quote:
This has led to the increased development of the DX format-specific lenses for the Nikon F-mount. Since these lenses do not need to cover the 135 film area, they are smaller and lighter than their 135 format counterparts of equal angle-of-view. The production of DX-specific lenses has also enabled the production of affordable wide angle lenses for the format (e.g., 12mm), whereas costly ultra-wide angle lenses from the 135 format were formerly required.
Nikon DX format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old Feb 24, 2010, 3:45 PM   #47
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Dave,

Check out post 26 or look at the sample picture form rockwell's site, it is not a 35mm equivalent aspect. The DX will not work in FF mode on a FX body, you need to crop it or you get the funky effect as seen on ken rockwell's example. The DX lens will not give the 18mm aspect on a FF. It will still be cropped.

As the OP knows SLR, it is the correct range of the lens, but it will have a different aspect from what he is use to. And that is what the OP is asking. 28mm on a crop body or sensor is not the same aspect as 28mm on a full frame sensor.
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Old Feb 24, 2010, 4:49 PM   #48
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Dave,

Check out post 26 or look at the sample picture form rockwell's site, it is not a 35mm equivalent aspect. The DX will not work in FF mode on a FX body, you need to crop it or you get the funky effect as seen on ken rockwell's example. The DX lens will not give the 18mm aspect on a FF. It will still be cropped.

As the OP knows SLR, it is the correct range of the lens, but it will have a different aspect from what he is use to. And that is what the OP is asking. 28mm on a crop body or sensor is not the same aspect as 28mm on a full frame sensor.
Yes, correct. The DX lens will NOT work as marked on an FF sensor. Actually, it will produce awful, horrible results on older cameras. But on the newer Nikons, the electrical link between the lens and the camera, shuts off the outer edge of the sensor; you then have a 1.5 crop sensor, BUT the DX lens now functions as a normal lens would on a DX sensor - i.e. you get the cropping factor.

Check out the entire Wiki article, or do a search on the net for "DX Cameras" or "DX lenses"

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Old Feb 24, 2010, 4:59 PM   #49
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semantics again. I would not want to use a DX lens on FF. As it defects the purpose of FF
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Old Feb 24, 2010, 10:34 PM   #50
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Hi Shoturtle,

In the other thread (let's continue here) you asked about budget. Honestly there is no defined. The idea is to find the right choice. It's possible to go on D90 with 18-200mm original Nikon lens, the most expensive set in the range we are talking about. Or even higher one or two tiers, if new models can be suggested. BUT, the question is: DO I NEED IT?

Will these more expensive cameras bring something to a enthisiast that will make any difference? Of course each tier has advantages - I read today about the Nikon D3S (102400 ISO!!!) - there is no limit about features and price...

Some models are in the dispute:


Pentax K-X

Pros:
- Higher ISO
- Better results in low light (that is DIFFERENT that just to have high ISO)
- Video recording
- Live Preview

Cons:
- More amateur feel
- Fixed LCD
- 230k res LCD


Nikon D90

Pros:
- More professional look
- LCD display on top
- High res. LCD
- Video recording
- Live Preview

Cons:
- Fixed LCD


Nikon D5000

Pros:
- Video recording
- LCD titling
- Live Preview

Cons:
- More amateur feel
- 230k res LCD


For me the triad Live Preview, Video Recording and Tilt LCD are features from Prosumer cameras that I really would like to keep when comming to dSLR... Despite K-X is better in lo light, D90 and D5000 (that is the same) seems to be good enough, and due the Tilt LCD I may give up the higher resolution LCD from D90, ant it seems that the camera that fits better at this moment is the D5000...

About other cameras mentioned in the replies all of you posted, the Canon T1i has fixed LCD and smaller sensor, so for use I intend the K-X repalces it as a choice. The Sony A500/550 has no video. Other a bit higher you mentioned, like Canon T2i, have fixed LCD, so D90 could replace it as a choice...

But other models, even more expensive, can be suggested. If we have an option something higher but that solve this equation (have all advantages), I can consider it! But AFAIK the only Tilt LCD in dSLR world is the D5000, right? I think it's considered too amateur to have this kind of feature...
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