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Old Aug 24, 2010, 12:42 PM   #11
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as a rule a camera with a larger sensor and a newer image processor fitted with a prime lens (slightly stopped down) will win . are we taking post processing into account, or talking about sooc images in auto mode? There are too many very different parameters involved here to make a valid conclusion, especially looking at low res images.
Yours,
Alex
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 1:01 PM   #12
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Sarah, thank you for making these comparisons and providing a nice set of your husband's photos, but I'm sorry to say it, the methodology is lacking. It is not a simple task to compare different cameras even in a controlled environment, but trying to compare images taken with different class cameras, equipped with different lenses and focal lengths, and shot with different apertures, shutter speeds and ISO values is kind of meaningless. The only fact that you prove with these shots is that one can take a good shot with almost any camera if the skills are there and the conditions are right.
Best regards,
Alex
I don't know Alex if I agree with you. No one is expecting a scientifically controlled experiment. This isn't a review of different equipment, using test pattern style sheets, etc and most people don't expect it to be.

What Sarah is doing is comparing different cameras/lens to determine which unit or combo produces the best everyday pictures.

The pictures are displayed for everybody to view and make their own decisions.

Sarah's pictures, taken with different camera outfits are;

  • using the same subject...her husband
  • appear to be shot in the same place
  • lighting appears to be similar from one pix to the next
  • Sarah is the photographer, thereby ensuring photographer consistency
  • Sarah is an experienced photographer and I'm confident F Stops, Shutter speeds, ISO's, etc...are factors that are considered when taking pictures for comparison sake
I've been an avid photographer for over 40 years, some of those years working as a photographer for a publishing firm.

In the past I've used similar testing on an informal basis. For example years ago, compared my Leica Rangefinder , 50mm Elmar vs Pentax ES 11, with M42 mount, 50 mm, Pentax Takumar SMC, F 1.8...same subject, similar lighting, etc....blew the pix up to 8 X 10's for comparisons.

I use my eye to determine which is the best photograph to my standards. Just as I use my ear to determine which is the most pleasing sound to my ear, when reviewing different stereo systems.

In the end, it's about personal preference...all in the eye of the beholder....that is the final judge.

I find that Sarah's pictures...allow me to make my own comparison, based on my experience and what I like in quality.

Last edited by lesmore49; Aug 24, 2010 at 1:21 PM.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 1:15 PM   #13
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as a rule a camera with a larger sensor and a newer image processor fitted with a prime lens (slightly stopped down) will win . are we taking post processing into account, or talking about sooc images in auto mode? There are too many very different parameters involved here to make a valid conclusion, especially looking at low res images.
Yours,
Alex
I know a larger sensor ...all other things being equal will produce a better picture.

I know a Pentax KM (K2000) with a 40 mm F 2.8 Pentax lens will produce a better pix then a Canon G11 will...the DSLR has a larger sensor.

What I am curious about is how much better is the pix.

In a previous posts in a previous thread I indicated that I wanted a small camera as a carry around that would take excellent pictures.

I used to carry around a Leica Rangefinder with a fold-able Leitz Elmar 50 mm lens. This combo was small, compact and capable of taking very good photos.

I had looked at Canon G series including the G9, G10 and G11 as possibilities to replace my small Leica RF in the digital age.

Because , primarily of the smaller sensor, the Canon, although an excellent camera falls short of producing a pix of the same quality as a DSLR....or of course the 35 mm RF Leica.

Therefore I made the suggestion that I thought a small bodied DSLR
(I have a KM ...K2000 in the states) with the highly rated Pentax 40mm F 2.8 pancake lens would perform quite well. BTW, I don't have the Pentax 40mm pancake lens.

Although it would be bigger then a G series, I don't think the size differential between a KM/40 Pancake lens would be that significant, given that at the time of it's introduction, the KM was touted as the smallest bodied DSLR.

From that question....the idea developed and Sarah thought it would be an interesting comparison review, as do I.

Last edited by lesmore49; Aug 24, 2010 at 1:22 PM.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 1:31 PM   #14
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... For example years ago, compared my Leica Rangefinder , 50mm Elmar vs Pentax ES 11, with 50 mm F 1.8...same subject, similar lighting, etc....blew the pix up to 8 X 10's for comparisons...
- this is exactly the reason, you bring the amount of variables to the minimum to allow a fair comparison.
Another reason is your 40 years of experience - you know exactly what you are looking for to compare and draw a conclusion.
Sarah's comparison is valuable and helpful, thank you again for doing this, Sarah, but aimed at novice photographers, who are not as experienced as you are. And looking at these photos they can actually make wrong choices (not that there are wrong or right choices here ), but it surely makes a good and healthy debate .
Best regards,
Alex
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 1:32 PM   #15
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Thanks Les-

For clearing up the issue that this is not a fully controlled scientific experiment. Rather, it is just a bunch of friends seeking to find out which lens/camera combination is most pleasing to their eyes. it is as simple as that.

Sarah Joyce
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 2:43 PM   #16
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...Therefore I made the suggestion that I thought a small bodied DSLR
(I have a KM ...K2000 in the states) with the highly rated Pentax 40mm F 2.8 pancake lens would perform quite well. BTW, I don't have the Pentax 40mm pancake lens.

Although it would be bigger then a G series, I don't think the size differential between a KM/40 Pancake lens would be that significant, given that at the time of it's introduction, the KM was touted as the smallest bodied DSLR...
I looked up the specs of KM and KX and they are exactly the same size, with KX being 45g lighter (with batteries), add a 40mm pankcake (90g) and this combo will be almost twice as heavy as G11 and will cost almost twice the price and it's quite a bit larger as well. I have and like G11, but as a compact camera it is not really a pocket go anywhere all the time camera. But it is small and versatile on its own with a good IQ, compared to my 3kg 'walk-around' camera bag
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 2:53 PM   #17
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That is good input. Thank you, Alex-

Sarah Joyce
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 5:15 PM   #18
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I looked up the specs of KM and KX and they are exactly the same size, with KX being 45g lighter (with batteries), add a 40mm pankcake (90g) and this combo will be almost twice as heavy as G11 and will cost almost twice the price and it's quite a bit larger as well. I have and like G11, but as a compact camera it is not really a pocket go anywhere all the time camera. But it is small and versatile on its own with a good IQ, compared to my 3kg 'walk-around' camera bag
G11 here is about $ 569. KM I bought last year with 18-55 was $ 529. 40mm F 2.8 is $ 260 and a bit at one store ...so here...the difference is approx. $ 800 (KM/40mm) to approx. $ 600 (G11). I do a lot of discount shopping via internet.

Extra weight of a camera whether it's 1 lb. or 2- 3lbs. is not important to me...I'm a big guy, 6'3"...240 lbs....so I don't notice the extra weight that much (I could afford to lose 20 lbs...LOL..).

My Leica RF is no lightweight for a small camera...I'm looking more at smaller physical size of camera, but bigger sensor, better pix is #1 priority.

The KM with a 40 mm F 2.8 is not that much bigger...relatively speaking then the G11, from my view.

I have a K10D with battery grip...this is a big, heavy bruiser compared to my KM.

But don't get me wrong, I like the Canon G series...very much...I just wish they could shoehorn a bigger sensor in the G body.

I used to carry my Leica Rangefinder in my suit or sports jacket inside breast pocket. It ruined the line of the suit but I liked to have a good camera on me, just in case.

Now that I'm retired I don't wear suits/sport's jackets much anymore.

You're right the G series is not really a pocket camera, but if I ever got one, I think Canon sells a nice little, leather case, that may be able to be carried on my pant's belt.

I also have to admit that the KM with a 40 mm pancake is an unusual combination that has an appeal...so it's not all about as small as possible for a carry around.
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Old Aug 24, 2010, 5:16 PM   #19
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Today (08/24) photo was taken with the older Pentax K100D, a 6 mp DSLR equipped with the Pentax 55-300mm lens. Once again we have good sharpness and lots of fine detail.
Nice picture. As you say, sharp and detailed. I think that one is the best
so far.

I often have a browse through the images on www.pix.ie Every now and then,
I come across an exceptionally sharp and clear image. I usually check
the EXIF expecting to discover that it was taken with a very high-end camera.
More often than not, these excellent images were taken with the humble 6MP
Pentax K100D or Nikon D40. Those old Sony sensors are very good, even
when compared to the latest and greatest.

Thanks Sarah, I look forward to tomorrow's image.

Last edited by corkpix; Aug 25, 2010 at 5:28 AM.
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Old Aug 25, 2010, 1:29 AM   #20
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Les, if image IQ is your first priority, you can either simply buy a 40/2.8 lens if you can live with this FL as your walk around, going the Oly E-PL1/Pana GF1 with a 20mm, f/1.7 pancake lens, or picking up a camera with smaller sensor, like G11, Samsung EX-1 or Panasonic LX3 or upcoming LX5. Everything is a compromise, as you know. The question is what compromise YOU are willing to make.
I was in a similar situation 3 months ago and G11 won for me. I wanted a relatively compact all-in-one package (have largish hands ), so the S90 was too small for me.
E-PL1 and GF1 were above my budget and I knew that I wouldn't end up with only a prime lens and would add more lenses down the road, Oly E420/450 with a 25mm/2.8 was not small enough (+ more lenses potentially).
DOF control is tough enough even with a APS-C sensor, so I discounted that as well and got G11, which fits me nicely and in good light, IQ is great and at higher ISO is acceptable. this is G11 at ISO1600:



cheers,
Alex
PS. sorry for stealing the thread
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